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Use of UE et cetera

category: general [glöplog]
Since I don't want to pollute Orange's majestic demo thread any further, let me give my 2 cents here.

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Yeah but it their own commercial product. It started out as a demoenigne. But even if that wasn't the case they coded every line themselfs. Sure by now they have expanded and others have chipped in, but Notch isn't comparable with UE in the way it related to the scene. UE was never ment to make demos with. Notch is the other way around: in the beginning I'm quitte sure they never thought they would tour the world over with Beyonce and Coldplay. UE is targeted to serve gamers as endusers.

I made some cash as well by vj'ing using our own demos made with our own engine. I know serveral other groups who operate along the same line. The line is blurred soemtimes. Nothing wrong with making money right?


Their own commercial product? Who cares? It's a commercial product (of which we both own paid-for copies) and that means it's backed by money, time and dedication you can not parallel in your spare time. Ever.

So really: it is exactly the same thing (the scale is different, I'll give you that), but apparently for some twisted reason they get a full pass from the same people who give UE-users flak. Not fair. Neither deserve flak, as Alien put it: it's like complaining about the painter's brush instead of the painting itself.

That said: who are you to decide what a piece of software clearly capable of doing various things is to be used for and not? ;)

The other way around one shouldn't bitch if your product falls short by either pointing at others or claiming kudos for "writing x, y and z myself!!".
added on the 2018-08-05 18:15:19 by superplek superplek
Even if you have an engine, you still need to make something good with it. That's the hard part actually.
added on the 2018-08-05 18:22:55 by fizzer fizzer
End of thread.
added on the 2018-08-05 18:23:31 by noby noby
I will say that if you use a premade engine, a bare minimum is that you declare it, so that voters can make their own informed decision.

The CNCD/Fairlight demo did so. The Orange demo did not.

(Also note that nearly every 1K and 4K credited Crinkler, the synth in use, etc.)
added on the 2018-08-05 18:25:37 by Sesse Sesse
Quote:
I will say that if you use a premade engine, a bare minimum is that you declare it, so that voters can make their own informed decision.

The CNCD/Fairlight demo did so. The Orange demo did not.

(Also note that nearly every 1K and 4K credited Crinkler, the synth in use, etc.)


I fully agree that's the way you do such things. Making an (I think honest) mistake by not putting it on the slide doesn't deserve a barrage of armchair-flak.

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That's the hard part actually.


Damn right.


End of thread ;)
added on the 2018-08-05 18:31:11 by superplek superplek
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added on the 2018-08-05 18:38:30 by waffle waffle
so remember kids, don't cheat, raise goats instead!
added on the 2018-08-05 18:41:59 by psenough psenough
brainstorm is already doing it and they seem quite productive, so why wouldn't you?
added on the 2018-08-05 18:49:29 by waffle waffle
I have a feeling we've had this discussion a few dozen times already. But we also talk about the weather quite often, so here goes. To me, demos are about illusion and magic. Engine or not, what difference does it make, if you don't have practically any limitations. Truth be told, the CS match last night felt about as interesting as the demo compo, even though the demo compo was said to be the greatest ever, or something.
added on the 2018-08-05 18:57:19 by yzi yzi
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the CS match last night felt about as interesting as the demo compo
agreed, i was totally hyped for ENCE vs HAVU
added on the 2018-08-05 19:03:31 by msqrt msqrt
I know I am probably in the minority, as nowadays demos seem to be all about the end result, to get something pretty to look at.

Foolishly I still cling to the old goal of demos - as a way to show what *you* can do. How nice pictures your graphician can pixel, how awesome tune your composer can do, and finally how great code your coder can implement.
With a UE demo you are showing off, well, I guess what you can design and what a team of coders somewhere who probably have no connection with the demo at all could code...

To me, that means that I think a bit less of it than a "pure" scene production.

Of course everyone is free to have their own opinion, but as stated before, if it's not clear that a third party engine is being used, those of us that *do* care won't have a chance to form our opinion.
added on the 2018-08-05 19:16:22 by Sdw Sdw
@waffle: So... using GoatTracker is also cheating? Or we should program the SID directly?
added on the 2018-08-05 19:20:44 by ham ham
Since this (obviously) popped up on Twitter as well, here's a useful link, relevant to Waffle's image above. I urge anyone who has "purity" issues to give it a listen (it's only a couple of minutes) because the parallel is pretty appropriate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVZzYlNIgMI

As for my two cents, I'll repeat what I said on Twitter:

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It’s 2018 and which tools you use isn’t important – the end result is what matters. If more people made demos instead of tools, the scene would be in a healthier place.


Also, there's this evergreen nugget:

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added on the 2018-08-05 19:26:34 by gloom gloom
@Sdw: I think that to get any idea or goal you have to a sufficient level of implementation takes an amount of dedication you can only give your (spare) time to if you're having fun.

What's fun is different for everyone. I'm spending a lot of time as of late coding a modern PC software rendering demo. Why? Because it's fun and it involves a lot of optimization. Not going to cry if it's blown away by a well crafted Notch production. Will smile if someone appreciates it for what it is. I sort of approach productions that way as well; except when it bores the pants off of me like a certain recent title contender ;)

Diversity (I hate how that word is SJW-tainted nowadays) is good.
added on the 2018-08-05 19:30:45 by superplek superplek
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With a UE demo you are showing off, well, I guess what you can design and what a team of coders somewhere who probably have no connection with the demo at all could code...


Let me ask: have you ever used UE? Because that comment reeks of ignorance. I don't think you know what UE actually is, how it works, or how much code is actually required to make something nice.
added on the 2018-08-05 19:30:47 by gloom gloom
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What's fun is different for everyone. I'm spending a lot of time as of late coding a modern PC software rendering demo. Why? Because it's fun and it involves a lot of optimization.

This. Different tools for different goals and purposes. You don't use a butter knife to cut down a tree, even though your life might consist of both spreading butter on toast and cutting down trees.
added on the 2018-08-05 19:32:13 by gloom gloom
Quote:

Foolishly I still cling to the old goal of demos - as a way to show what *you* can do.


This.

True coders are oppressed minority these days :P

There are so many engines/libraries out there that are ready to be used for free that even if you implement something on your own by actually understanding what you are doing - nobody will appreciate it or even worse, they will suspect you have copy pasted it from somewhere.

At best, you will hear patronizing comments like: great job at reinventing the wheel, I would have used library X and Y and be done with it faster, etc... but yeah, those people are missing the point of showing your actual coding skills.

Nevertheless, as we do demos/intros as a hobby for our own pleasure, I thing it's fair to appreciate all kinds of creativity - as long as it is labelled properly.
added on the 2018-08-05 19:42:26 by tomkh tomkh
superplek: Absolutely, I agree with that 100% - let everyone do what they find fun, and then if the audience appreciates it or not, well, that's another matter! I know for sure that the stuff I produce is not something for everyone, but I am glad that there are those who like it.
I have nothing against people doing stuff with UE4, and I can definitely appreciate the end result (the Orange demo is brilliant for example). The only thing I want to say is that I would have been even more impressed if the engine with all the DOF and shadows and whatever buzz goes into a modern engine was implemented by the scene coder. And since there actually *are* groups that have engines (which might not be quite up to the standard of UE) that they have written themselves, I tend to want to give them the nod to say "hey, I know that it was not easy implementing all that stuff from scratch, I am impressed with the work you put in"
added on the 2018-08-05 19:44:56 by Sdw Sdw
I dont give it a shit, I use what I want. Fun is the key.
added on the 2018-08-05 19:51:32 by skarab skarab
Still waiting for the quake1 engine demo
added on the 2018-08-05 19:56:53 by oasiz oasiz
i tihnk the cleanest way is to display the name of the tool you used a., in the infofile b., on the beamer as a comment under your entry's name and c., in the prod itself at the credits part. with this, the audience can make what they want of it.
@Sdw:

Now that's fair. But with the bar for what for example a PC demo should be to be a podium contender at a major party is getting higher and higher. That makes being competitive in your spare time (even as a group) somewhat of a major goal instead of a temporary hobby project.

Apart from a few established engines (I own a copy of Notch too by the way, for prototyping or maybe one day I'll think "hey, let's try it this way") - your only chance is incorporating enough third party libraries to make life just easy enough so focus can be there where you want it. This I all say from a technical point of view, I also still have some belief that a strong concept might be even more crucial. And more difficult to come by depending on who you are.

So then it depends on what you want out of it, and I automatically run into what I just said: fun. If you think winning is fun and you have limited resources: smaller parties.

Categories like 64KB and smaller are also make a resurgence, not to mention platforms like Amiga and C64 soaring. Guess that has at least in part something to do with people wanting attainable goals.

(I'll shut my trap now)
added on the 2018-08-05 20:03:07 by superplek superplek
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True coders are oppressed minority these days :P

Nah. It's just that the coders that cared about certain aspects of demo coding decided to focus on size optimized and retro platforms instead. People seek their own challenges, and while this might be hard to understand for many, but writing yet another object loader is an utter waste of time.

It's also interesting to see some of the same people poo-pooing people using frameworks and engines and yet go ga-ga when someone implements yet another SIGGRAPH paper and stick it in a 4k or 64k. Somehow, the latter is "more pure" or "better skills" and I just can't help but smile and shake my head :)

In the end, I think it boils down to this: the demoscene has always evolved, and at any point in time "what a demo is" has always been defined by the people who made them. The future is made by those who show up, and I'd like more people to show up so that the demoscene does indeed have a future.
added on the 2018-08-05 20:09:38 by gloom gloom
Re: content and engines... Sceners have matured and their taste and understanding has matured as well ... or at least changed. Except mine isn't. I haven't matured, I've just got older and fatter. I still like just groovy and juicy and shiny things. ;) In the 90s, the first thing I didn't get was "story demos", and then came poem demos, which I totally didn't get. And now there's ... I get it so little, I can't even tell what it is. It flies somewhere out there, I'm just deeper under ground digging groovy 4/4 beats and juicy chords. Visuals should be fat and shiny and dance to the beat.
added on the 2018-08-05 20:10:21 by yzi yzi
Good idea to start a thread, Oranges demo deserves more thatn an offtopic thread.

So as to reply to superpleks orginal post: I don't agree. I think ASD showed it is still possible to rival a commercial engine in your spare time. But it is hard. Personally I lack the coding skills ever make something as cool as Notch ever in my lifetime.

One of the reasons I'm very happy with the dongle you send me from Denmark haha :)
Although I can't make Notch: I can and will however make a demo using Notch. This isn't something trival, as is is making a demo with UE4. It is however a million times easier than starting with an emptry C# solution file.

Standing on the shoulder of giants. The same reason I love making demos with Giovanni, our own engine. It gives that lovely DIY-feeling, using only inhouse tools. It is the true essence of the demoscene spirit. Using tools others wrote to make releases could serve some different purposes:

1)as a newcomer to learn the processes and skills of demomaking. Timing, direction, planning, teamwork etc
2)as an important variation on 1): to actually get stuff done and to put releases out in time
3)to re-enter the scene after some absence.
4)if your own toolset is slow, one could use tools made by others to iterate faster and to do some rapid prototyping.

We used Werkkzeug back in the day before we had Giovanni. Loved working with it but we got a lot of negativty in doing so. I don't care. It paved the way for our own engine. (props to Alusi and Beta btw. I'm merely an enduser from a coders perspective).

I think Fairlight has all the rights to make demos with Notch. The same if ASD ever decide to sell their engine I don't mind. I do mind however if people use UE4 or Unity to make demos. I talked to the Poobrain0guys as well about their use of Unity without giving credit.

On the flip side: I'm a happy bundle of joy to see teh stuff Orange put out, and I'm still smiling when I'm thinking of some of the stuff Poo-Brain made.

Based on Glooms pyramid I'm in the absolute top. Glad to see I made the top somewhere at least :p
added on the 2018-08-05 20:11:25 by numtek numtek

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