pouët.net

Use of UE et cetera

category: general [glöplog]
smash: you can always do what Gargajs post shows with dope -- maybe with a big red arrow pointing to the transparent object?
added on the 2018-08-10 12:27:02 by msqrt msqrt
Isn't that what Frameranger tried? :)
added on the 2018-08-10 12:28:23 by Gargaj Gargaj
jco: lol, wins the thread to me.
added on the 2018-08-10 12:40:16 by tomkh tomkh
Definition of effect (from Oxford Dictionaries):

Quote:
A change which is a result or consequence of an action or other cause.
1.1 mass noun The state of being or becoming operative.
1.2 mass noun The extent to which something succeeds or is operative.
1.3 Physics with modifier A physical phenomenon, typically named after its discoverer.
1.4 An impression produced in the mind of a person.
effects The lighting, sound, or scenery used in a play, film, or broadcast.
3 effects Personal belongings.
[with object] Cause (something) to happen; bring about.


Even for a rotating cube, you could say that the rotation (on its own) is even an effect.

Here's a list over socalled oldschool demoeffects.

In the real world there is also a number of different types of effects:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_effects
You also have Special effects, Visual effects: SFX, VFX,... and so on.

And there is the cause and effect idiom: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causality.
added on the 2018-08-10 14:27:12 by rudi rudi
We should make a compo for demos without effects.
added on the 2018-08-10 15:05:37 by jco jco
added on the 2018-08-10 15:25:01 by kb_ kb_
Like youtube kinda "Marinows" or "NoDemo"
added on the 2018-08-10 15:25:45 by g0blinish g0blinish
Thanks for making this thread, I freely admit I was one of those people who was rather firmly in the"press magic button, get cool demo" camp whenever I saw Notch, Unity or UE being used. I'm glad this thread has made me think it through a bit more and made me reconsider my opinion.

As to the topic at hand, we've always had this discussion. We will always have it. Whenever something new comes along, mainly for PC, we will have this discussion. What is a demo? How is it made? What is ok? What is not? Is it to show off technical skills or design skills? Or both? Is it different for different platforms? Is it ok that it is or should a newschool demo and an oldschool demo mean the same? Are size limited productions somehow better?

I'm old enough to remember the rage when people wanted to use graphics cards for demos and not make everything themselves. When parties existed with separate demo compos for software and hardware rendering (see Magic, it's been done already). Or, heh, with a separate compo for demos made in Java (same party, different year).

Or then, when graphics cards were more accepted, when someone wanted to use the newest card with all the possibilities they offered (hello smash, navis), while the rest couldn't afford them. Huge drama!

Doesn't stop with the PC though. Read the end scroller in Robotic Liberation. Watch BluREU and make up your mind about whether it's a C64 demo or not. Should Aga demos run smooth on 020 to be real demos?

My point, I guess, is that there will be as many people who have an idea what a demo is and what it's for as there are people in the demoscene. I'm pretty sure we'll never get to a stage where everyone agrees (maybe apart from it having to be real time).

As such, I think it should be up to the organizers of the given competition to set the rules for that competition. Don't like their rules? Well, that sucks for you, but their party, their rules. And for now, that means that all you can do is either judge the demo according to your own thoughts on what a demo should be - or wether it follows the rules - or both, and let everyone else do the same.

Oh and also, the Orange demo rocks. Should they have told us they used UE on a slide? Possibly. Do we need to discuss it for 14 pages? Possibly not..
added on the 2018-08-10 15:35:07 by leijaa leijaa
added on the 2018-08-10 15:48:19 by absence absence
Knowing the platform and size limit should be enough for everyone.
added on the 2018-08-10 15:56:53 by yzi yzi
Seeing as sceners are dropping out majorly every year and the uptake of new people is but a trickle, I'm not really sure what other method for having that 'party blockbuster' scene of yore exists. Getting a coder and designer free at the same time is super difficult in any group now (not musicians, there's billions of those) , so if you want more than a few big PC demos in 2018 I don't really see where these contributors are going to come from. tbh with both the big 3rd party engines personally I'm writing enough code and shaders just in using them, so I don't have a problem with them being in demos.
added on the 2018-08-10 16:02:22 by 4mat 4mat
Quote:
As to the topic at hand, we've always had this discussion. We will always have it. Whenever something new comes along, mainly for PC, we will have this discussion. What is a demo?


I feel you may belittle the issue at hand. This is about the role of coding in demos now. It is perhaps a larger issue than 3D accelerator cards or Vic-20 memory expansions - regardless of one's opinion.
For musicians, if you have trouble getting your music used in a demo, slap some visuals together with the music. You'll probably make better music sync than most coders.
added on the 2018-08-10 16:17:41 by yzi yzi
Quote:
It is perhaps a larger issue than 3D accelerator cards or Vic-20 memory expansions

No I think she's right on the money; 3D accelerators were the same debate, basically "now 3D is too easy, noone has to code polyfillers anymore", then there was a transitional period of really boring 3D flybys because that's where effort stopped, and then when shaders came along things slowly became interesting again.

Of course the sideeffect then was that software rendering effectively died out.
added on the 2018-08-10 16:18:30 by Gargaj Gargaj
Quote:
Of course the sideeffect then was that software rendering effectively died out.

On PC :D
added on the 2018-08-10 16:32:57 by lug00ber lug00ber
I do see a near future where demos and intros( you read right, stay tuned) will be done in unity, unreal engine and notch.
added on the 2018-08-10 16:49:00 by branch branch
And only in these engines
added on the 2018-08-10 16:49:18 by branch branch
Quote:
No I think she's right on the money; 3D accelerators were the same debate, basically "now 3D is too easy, noone has to code polyfillers anymore"


For me it looks that the supposed easiness has been just one issue on this thread and saying that the other side is just complaining about easiness is a misrepresentation of their views.
With shaders and raymarching etc, software rendering has come back. It feels fun to code just like making basic 3D, gouraud and texture mapping and env mapping and bump mapping etc did back in the day. And 4klang feels fun like trackers. And you can even extend it. It's just that the fun is in 4k size. 1k is also fun to make. 64k is not fun to make, and big demos are not fun to even watch. (Though I try to, because it feels like an obligation)
added on the 2018-08-10 16:53:42 by yzi yzi
Quote:
And only in these engines
as in "in no other engines" or "not without engines"?

I'm having a hard time seeing how you'd improve, say, the 4k workflow much by using an engine. You can't use any of the provided rendering help and you definitely can't use the engine itself. The timeline editors etc could be usable, but then again most 4ks have procedural camera paths etc exactly because storing them explicitly would take too much space.

For 64ks they might be neat tho, if just for directing.
added on the 2018-08-10 16:57:53 by msqrt msqrt
Ok, they also think that knowing when exactly to flip that bit in $D011 is somehow a higher form of craft or art than let's say making millions of particles dance in an aesthetically pleasing way.

Also, no, it's definitely not the end of coding. Adding custom code in UE or Unity will always give you an edge above those who just use the timelining tools (which are pretty recent btw. I remember times where you couldn't even rotate a cube in Unity without code), writing your own shaders will always give you ways to express yourself that a stock engine will not, and even if you don't write a single line of code - the optimization challenges aka making your stuff run at least remotely well in realtime on your machine are the fucking same, regardless if you type some text into a text editor or fumble around in a graph with the mouse.
added on the 2018-08-10 17:01:57 by kb_ kb_
We need more Unlimited Detail!
added on the 2018-08-10 19:35:06 by Optimus Optimus
made with Unlimited Detail Suite XXLeet
you mean like that Euclidean Engine thing? ^__^
added on the 2018-08-10 21:47:37 by farfar farfar
Quote:
Even for a rotating cube, you could say that the rotation (on its own) is even an effect.

You could, but unless you were being completely context unaware and just straight up argumentative, you wouldn't. On that topic, here's another word from the Oxford Dictionary:

Quote:
obtuse
ADJECTIVE
1. Annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand.
‘he wondered if the doctor was being deliberately obtuse’

2. Difficult to understand, especially deliberately so.
‘some of the lyrics are a bit obtuse’
added on the 2018-08-10 22:54:07 by gloom gloom

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