pouët.net

Use of UE et cetera

category: general [glöplog]
...the point is: I don't really think it is dumb to make demos or intros. Creating art has a purpose.
However, I have doubts about competitions - they can be good motivation to some people, but I wouldn't go over the top with it. Otherwise, sorry guys, but it is becoming unhealthy. It's sometimes hard for me to stand those "I'm the legend, because I won in all 3 categories and you suck, because you didn't" kind of attitudes.
added on the 2018-08-07 00:40:15 by tomkh tomkh
How is that relevant to the commercial engine discussion though? Sounds like personal grievance more than anything.
added on the 2018-08-07 00:54:52 by Gargaj Gargaj
By the way, no-one said "you suck because you didn't".
added on the 2018-08-07 01:23:29 by fizzer fizzer
Gargaj: it is in fact irrelevant. It was more or less continuation of the side-topic "is demoscene dumb in general".

The genesis of it is Smash/Gloom rant about small intros.

In their words:
Quote:

(...) and stick it in a 4k or 64k. Somehow, the latter is "more pure" or "better skills" and I just can't help but smile and shake my head :)

Quote:

Now lets be honest about the whole sizecoding superiority bullshit for a second.


What superiority bullshit?
Who said intros are more pure and need better skills in the first place?

Now I realize it was just a red herring from them, so they can push their argument that "anything goes" in a broad daylight.
And I almost got fooled by their nasty tactics!

There is one advantage of intros though: you cannot use commercial engine in it and your demo-tool usually doesn't have to be so sophisticated, so it's manageable for a hobby team to pull it off, examples are many: Conspiracy, Logicoma, Monad etc..
I was also doing my own tools for 64k. And now I see I should have spent more time on them, but yeah, it's not like it's impossible to rely on home-made tools for competitive 64k.
added on the 2018-08-07 01:28:03 by tomkh tomkh
Also please keep in mind: I have never said using commercial engines is terrible. I only said it that the prod has to be labelled properly. And no, it's not shaming. It's kind of like saying that putting an "8kb" label on an intro is shaming ;)
added on the 2018-08-07 01:56:28 by tomkh tomkh
The "more pure" claim was clearly a straw man, you don't have to fight it.

Unlimited demos feel more like a wild compo. Not to say there's anything wrong with wild compos, though. It's just more difficult to really understand for me. Too complicated, too much arbitrary freedom and less of illusions and magic and coder fun. A single-platform resource-limited compo would be the best for me to understand, and a platform I'm familiar with. If we look at aesthetics only, then DEMO2 by Ekspert wins over most of this pathetic and depressing "real" demo stuff.
added on the 2018-08-07 07:50:39 by yzi yzi
Quote:
https://imgflip.com/i/2ff7dn
added on the 2018-08-07 08:20:36 by dixan dixan
BB Image
added on the 2018-08-07 08:20:52 by dixan dixan
1989: Development tools for games and demos are largely the same
2019: Development tools for games and demos are largely the same

=Return of the original demoscene!
added on the 2018-08-07 08:35:41 by DrTerrorZ DrTerrorZ
@optimus: haha :))) - that's it, you made my day!
.. will change my nick to Paul Sr. ;)
@Optimus : mov AL,13h please, unless you have a very good idea how to reuse the wasted memory ^^
added on the 2018-08-07 10:02:21 by HellMood HellMood
Actually, since there are no size limitations anymore, nothing stops you from pre-rendering the whole thing as a video and make your "demo" just replay said video.

Oh, it needs to be "real time"? Then just render something insignificant on top of the video in real time. There's pretty much no way to draw the line there, what's legal and what's not.
added on the 2018-08-07 10:04:29 by sol_hsa sol_hsa
In fairness some of the ASM demos would weigh less rendered to video :)
added on the 2018-08-07 10:06:07 by Gargaj Gargaj
Quote:
The "more pure" claim was clearly a straw man

Nope.
added on the 2018-08-07 10:14:00 by gloom gloom
Quote:
Creating art has a purpose.

Certainly, but this discussion is about demos.
added on the 2018-08-07 10:38:14 by absence absence
@sol_hsa I already did that in http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=65648
added on the 2018-08-07 10:38:37 by visy visy
gosh i have this thread opened in ~20 tabs in my browser, it is definitely one of the all time best. burn thread burn :D
added on the 2018-08-07 11:07:05 by wbc\\bz7 wbc\\bz7
If using commercial engines means we get more actually watchable stuff like DEMO2, it must be good. ;)

In resource-limited platform compos there's always a bit of "how did they do that" interest, regardless of whether I like the music or visuals. In big demos my topmost question has usually been "why did they do that", which is not good.

But I guess this thread is about some clueless guys feeling cheated. "What, this entry was using an engine??! Why was I not told?? Police! Help! Law and order! There has to be rules and mechanisms which prevent me from not understanding how these things are made!!" Come on! Why do you even watch big demos if you are so clueless. There are no real limitations and what you see can be just about anything.

All of this has probably been said before, but middle-aged men like to repeat themselves.
added on the 2018-08-07 11:25:02 by yzi yzi
Even 2GB for a few minutes will have quite visible compression artifacts. A nicer video will run closer to ten gigabytes easily. Noise, flashing, scanlines, etc.. usual demo stuff will compress really poorly.
There are other technical limitations such as chroma subsampling, getting around that will generally increase the size even more.
added on the 2018-08-07 11:30:00 by oasiz oasiz
Quote:
But I guess this thread is about some clueless guys feeling cheated. "What, this entry was using an engine??! Why was I not told?? Police! Help! Law and order! There has to be rules and mechanisms which prevent me from not understanding how these things are made!!" Come on! Why do you even watch big demos if you are so clueless. There are no real limitations and what you see can be just about anything.

This. Exactly the point I was trying to make with the question earlier.
added on the 2018-08-07 11:31:39 by noby noby
Quote:
In resource-limited platform compos there's always a bit of "how did they do that" interest, regardless of whether I like the music or visuals.
I have to disagree with this -- if you're not clueless with said platform ( :^) ), you pretty much know what's going on.
added on the 2018-08-07 11:50:06 by msqrt msqrt
Picture: Juha Mieto watching demos, calling Hannu Karpo and the police and demanding justice.
added on the 2018-08-07 11:54:04 by yzi yzi
i have to admit that this thread it quite entertaining.
It actually made me miserable.
added on the 2018-08-07 13:58:02 by Gargaj Gargaj

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