pouët.net

How not to deal with other people and their art

category: general [glöplog]
how i can i take you seriously as a moderating influence when you are accusing me of acting in bad faith?
added on the 2019-06-04 10:29:43 by wayfinder wayfinder
Iam not your enemy.
Everyone deserves defense...that is the base of our legal framework.
Iam not a lawyer, but iam a friend.
Also yours, even when you may doubt this.
But when someone hits the bottom already, the fight should pause or at least someONE should reach a hand here.

And i dont turn my back, especially not when times are hard.
And i know anger and conflict managment better than anyone else...

I dont agree with everything my friends do, really im not...sometimes i hate it.
But that doesnt mean i "support" it.
And you cant imagine what friends i have outside the scene, with moral standards i really dont share.
added on the 2019-06-04 10:35:38 by _docd _docd
jix: You're clearly shootin' over the target.
Quote:
Making fun of people for something they didn't chose and can't change already is a form of intolerance.

Uhm, not in the sense of the term. Maybe in your personal book and certainly not if it's not inciting others to physically impair your daily life.
Apparently I'm not deep enough in the recent scene-drama or IRC/Jitter/Friendface shenanigans to assert certain "jokes" but please tell me what kind of tastless joke would impair your daily life, outside from constant IRL harassment maybe?
If some idiot is "mean on the internet", sign off and take a walk. That's my recipe at least.

Quote:
If I look at the demoscene it's far from being folks from all sorts of life and sub-cultures and tastes.

Then I don't know which parties you have attended lately.
Starting with musical taste the Scene covers almost every aspect, continuing with lifestyle choices.

And if some things said or written suck or make you uncomfortable ... well, welcome to life. We have a colloquial proverb in Germany: "Das Leben ist kein Ponyhof" (life's not a pony ranch/petting zoo).
added on the 2019-06-04 10:38:05 by d0DgE d0DgE
Just wondering as no one cared about it so far:

As it involves non-binary activity, is the paralymp3 compo accessible?
added on the 2019-06-04 10:49:03 by T$ T$
docd i think i actually might ;) but thank you, and i'm sorry i attacked you. i get where you're coming from much better now.
added on the 2019-06-04 10:49:25 by wayfinder wayfinder
(still doesn't make me wanna cancel uc or be part of some shadowy agenda)
added on the 2019-06-04 10:52:17 by wayfinder wayfinder
thanks way. through alll this mess i crossed a red line too.
i apologize.
added on the 2019-06-04 10:54:27 by _docd _docd
<3
added on the 2019-06-04 11:00:30 by wayfinder wayfinder
Quote:
If some idiot is "mean on the internet", sign off and take a walk.


Fuck that shit. I want a scene where people's level of participation is determined by their love of creativity, not their ability to endure people being assholes.

It's sad that certain people don't seem to have realised how much damage the "if you don't like it, just walk away" attitude has done to the scene, until it's someone in their own social circle walking away.
added on the 2019-06-04 11:13:54 by gasman gasman
I was just about to say pretty much the same thing.

We're not talking about being in a club where you don't like the music.
added on the 2019-06-04 11:15:12 by Gargaj Gargaj
I'm not talking about a joke that impairs me, I'm talking about making fun of something that impairs me in daily life. For example when someone makes fun of a chronic illness I have. That happened on revision and I remember that more than seeing overdrive 2, which I've worked on, for the first time on the big screen. It really killed the mood for me. The thing that started this, that wayfinder wanted to change, is also an instance of that.

And yeah that happens, and I have to deal with it and I may chose to do that by calling it out. If the response to that is that I shouldn't cause drama or not feel hurt by it, it shows me that people don't care about such things hurting me and others. That's a choice they can make, but it's something I consider intolerant.

And it's not a single instance, it happened often that I saw something and thought, ugh, that must feel bad or when it targeted me it felt bad but when I looked around most were laughing about it.

And don't expect people to always call things out that make them feel bad, that takes energy and especially when I was new to the scene I wouldn't have dared to do that for fear of loosing new friends that shared a hobby of mine that few friends outside of it understood.

And with the difference of diversity I mean the proportions, sure you can probably find someone for everything you listed in the scene. Some people endure some amount of being mocked for having access to something that is otherwise great, some might actually not mind it, or they think it's not going to get better than that. (I do agree that a lot of communities are worse than the scene regarding this). But from my experience with other communities a lot of people do mind, so if you start to care about it you'll get more of them or lose fewer of them.

I also have friends who enjoy making art and coding, but I wouldn't suggest to them to visit a demoparty because I know they do mind these things.

And what are the arguments of having to continue with such jokes? Free speech? Well me complaining about it is as much free speech. I shouldn't complain because it kills the mood and takes away the fun? Well that stuff takes away all the fun for me.

Just saying "Das Leben ist kein Ponyhof" to the complaints of others, especially if you could make a difference, is a sign that you do not care. Of course your choice. But because of that I made the choice to walk away. And I want you to understand why, because I don't think it is your intention to drive people like me away, so knowing that what you do has that effect, might help you in not doing that in the future should you care.
added on the 2019-06-04 11:21:09 by jix jix
jix: neither scamp nor wayfinder are "the scene". It seems a bit silly to me to leave the whole demoscene behind because a select few (out of maybe 5000 sceners worldwide!?) are having a ridiculous fight in public. It also seems uncalled for to expect other sceners, who have absolutely nothing to do with this drama, to get involved to defend their "scene home".

No, the demoscene is just fine! Particularly because the majority of sceners still manages to be positively engaged at demoparties (Outline just happened, I heard it was a great party!) by creating cool (realtime) art and music and having constructive conversations, which is what the scene is all about! The demoscene is huge and versatile and very much alive, don't let a bunch of drama people overshadow it all, please.
added on the 2019-06-04 11:33:44 by SunSpire SunSpire
Quote:
... Just saying "Das Leben ist kein Ponyhof" to the complaints of others, especially if you could make a difference, is a sign that you do not care. ...


beat me to it. causing harm and then proclaiming "haha well life is cruel" is fuckin illegitimate.
Quote:
It also seems uncalled for to expect other sceners, who have absolutely nothing to do with this drama, to get involved to defend their "scene home".

Oh bullshit, the scene is what people make of it and how they react to the events in it. If the overwhelming attitude to someone raising concerns is that sceners don't care, then that's the message that goes out there, and that's gonna be the cause for people like Jix leaving and telling their friends that they are better off in some other community.

This whole "fuck you got mine" attitude is very disturbing.
added on the 2019-06-04 11:39:46 by Gargaj Gargaj
Let friendship prevail.
I think the core of this ridiculous conflict is that Scamp see some reasonable objections like they were some form of personal attack (the title of the thread suggest it).
Why? I don't know. But maybe this shit will get cold the moment he realizes that nobody wants to burn him.

@wayfinder: I understand your point (and I agree with you) but be careful with the way you express it because when people take some opinion like a sort of personal attack they tend to enter in a defensive loop and stop listening.

@Scamp: Dude, don't take all these things personally. A party is a collaborative endeavour and you must listen to the people when they try to change something for the better. Maybe they have a valid point. Just listen.

@jix: Don't be impressed with the apparent lack of care of other people about all this thing. There are lots of people that agree with your point of view but you should not expect'em to enter this thread or even notice that you wanna leave of the scene. Just don't leave. Wait to the resolution of this mess.
added on the 2019-06-04 11:42:22 by ham ham
Quote:
No, the demoscene is just fine! Particularly because the majority of sceners still manages to be positively engaged at demoparties

Exactly. The MAJORITY is fine, but we're just terrible when it comes to dealing with minority complaints.
added on the 2019-06-04 11:49:09 by Gargaj Gargaj
@sunspire: what gargaj wrote

@ham: I have limited spare time and I'd rather spend it where I feel welcome so I'll leave. I'm not leaving to make a point, I'm leaving for my own good, so if people don't notice, that's OK with me. But if I just walk away without saying something, some people, including some I care about, might not realize that they contributed to this, and I'd take away a chance for them to reflect upon this. Given the current state I don't expect a quick substantial change. Who knows what the scene looks like in a few years? If things are better I might come back, but I am in the lucky position to have other fulfilling hobbies, so I don't have to endure this for now.
added on the 2019-06-04 11:51:49 by jix jix
I don't want to get too deep into the garbage fire that is this thread, but it's funny that the people who always yell the loudest about their "right of free speech" and how people should 'just take it or walk away!' immediately turn into the "whiny snowflakes that need a safe space" they always yell about as soon as the 'free speech' is actually is directed against them.

Ugh.

This shit is making me really sad, I love and respect both the people involved, but I won't stand for the ignorance and the absurd fucking childlike behaviour some people have shown in this thread.
added on the 2019-06-04 11:52:14 by okkie okkie
@jix

Quote:
I'm not talking about a joke that impairs me, I'm talking about making fun of something that impairs me in daily life. For example when someone makes fun of a chronic illness I have. That happened on revision and I remember that more than seeing overdrive 2, which I've worked on, for the first time on the big screen. It really killed the mood for me. The thing that started this, that wayfinder wanted to change, is also an instance of that.


I'm sorry but you really should have talked to us about this after what have happened. That's what we (the group) are there for.
added on the 2019-06-04 11:56:05 by neoman neoman
@neoman Yeah I probably should have, I mean I know that some in titan, including you, (but you weren't at that revision IIRC?) would have cared, but in a scene where the first reaction to everything is "oh no drama" you internalize not saying anything. I was sitting at a table with people I didn't knew personally, and while one person around noticed that I was taken off guard by that comment their response was to immediately play it down.
added on the 2019-06-04 12:04:12 by jix jix
I feel the people suggesting "just ignore it and walk away" really don't understand the matter at all. Walking away in doesn't mean just ignoring one party and that's it. The issue is the pervasive attitude of disregard for others expressed by many (non-UC-affiliated people). And just like Gargaj said this isn't limited to the two who started it.

When you say "just walk away" that means walking away from the demoscene entirely. Utter disregard for your friends' feelings is just about the most toxic passive aggressive behavior you show, and nobody can withstand that an extended period and just coming out fine. This goes way beyond simply the name of a compo now. I don't feel comfortable attending any party with people behaving like this, not UC or otherwise. But I don't walk away easily, and I don't just stay silent and be complicit with toxicity.

I implore you, please don't push people away from the scene like this. I feel seriously sorry for everyone negatively affected by this, especially jix.
added on the 2019-06-04 12:04:46 by noby noby
Quote:
@jix: Don't be impressed with the apparent lack of care of other people about all this thing. There are lots of people that agree with your point of view but you should not expect'em to enter this thread or even notice that you wanna leave of the scene. Just don't leave. Wait to the resolution of this mess.


This. Just because people choose to not add fuel to the fire does not mean they don't care! And Pouet is not the scene, either. Many people may not even be aware of all this drama/thread happening and somehow I don't see why they should be dragged into it, is all I was trying to say.
added on the 2019-06-04 12:09:18 by SunSpire SunSpire
Thanks Noby for being hella more eloquent in saying what I wanted to say.
added on the 2019-06-04 12:09:43 by okkie okkie
@jix I do understand and we are a huge group and there will be always a member who might not agree 100%. But in the end everyone is and will be there for you if there is hurt involved! (I really don't want to repeat that again, but words can and do hurt, for fuck sake!)

You can always talk about that kind of stuff in private or in our group chat or wherever else. And you can always be sure that there is someone listening and understanding.

Please, think about it again. And oh yes, what noby said. Thanks.
added on the 2019-06-04 12:12:08 by neoman neoman
@SunSpire I don't mind people not noticing this. What I do mind is people noticing what this is about and then just saying "oh no drama again, ahaha both sides are so unreasonable". And I'm not talking about pouet here, I'm talking about friends of mine in the scene, or people I know I'm going to run into at parties. If you don't have the energy or time to deal with an issue, that's fine, but making fun of it instead? I mean we're talking about someone wanting to change something that could reasonably be interpreted as making fun of a group of people after someone of that group stated they were uncomfortable with that. If your reaction to that is that both sides are unreasonable and causing just drama, yeah I have a problem with that. If your reaction is to ignore it because you don't have the time or energy or didn't notice that's ok with me, but don't tell people that care and have the energy to speak up that they are unreasonable.
added on the 2019-06-04 12:20:58 by jix jix

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