Discussion: Usage of D3DX in 4k intros

category: general [glöplog]
Due to the fact that it (afaik, correct me if i'm wrong) seems Mircosoft is NOT going to implement d3dx9_XX.dll into the offical "End-User Runtime" i am not sure whether it's a good idea allowing the usage of that DLL at parties or not.

On one hand you get a lot of nice new possiblities, which, used the right way, could increase the quality of todays 4k intros a lot (e.g. mesh smoothing algorithms, normals calculations, matrix stuff, and and and) one the other hand you have the incompatibility with users who run a "standard" windows with normal DirectX configuration. The DLL is not included in a "standard" windows setup.
Another problem is that there are now serveral different versions (3 ( 24-27) or even more) so you need not only a single DLL file to watch all the windows 4ks out there, perhaps you don't have the right version (there are workarounds for that, just copy and rename e.g. d3dx9_27.dl to d3dx9_24.dll, d3dx9_25.dll and so on, but that sucks)...

Discuss now! :)
added on the 2005-09-25 14:12:27 by las las
Due to the fact that it (afaik, correct me if i'm wrong) seems Mircosoft is NOT going to implement d3dx9_XX.dll into the offical "End-User Runtime"

I'd say let's wait until this decision gets finalized. I wouldn't take this granted anyway.
added on the 2005-09-25 14:25:05 by Gargaj Gargaj
added on the 2005-09-25 14:30:08 by hitchhikr hitchhikr
i kindof feel it shouldnt be allowed.
it's one thing to require dlls that everybody has installed with windows - directx released runtimes and opengl (cos come on, it's going to be rather hard to make any accel stuff that works on a number of cards without one of those) and the standard windows install falls into that category.

but if it's separate from that, it's a whole different kettle of fish, you could then start arguing for loads of stuff. and we then start arguing about whether it's really 4k or not.

imo the rule should be, no d3dx dll allowed, and if you want to use it in a demo you should include the dll with your demo.
added on the 2005-09-25 17:09:43 by smash smash
Currently the fact is that most of the "top" 4k intros this year make use of D3DX.

there are positive and negative sides, as we e.g. saw at Evoke05 (mentioned before... the usage of different version).

For myself i really don't know how i should decide, because D3DX gives you a lot of nice stuff and new possiblities.
All parties except for Assembly allowed it afaik.

Microsoft sucks.
added on the 2005-09-25 18:37:09 by las las
If it's not in the actual windows update/end user runtime a few weeks before the party, it shouldn't be allowed. The vc7 runtimes aren't allowed either, so why allowing some dll's that are not in the windows updates ?
added on the 2005-09-25 19:44:13 by shash shash
sundown didn't allow it either, and microsoft rules.
added on the 2005-09-25 19:46:39 by skrebbel skrebbel
I agree with Smash.

Speaking of which, we agreed on many things recently, I don't really like that, that's just wrong and you know it! ;)
added on the 2005-09-25 20:44:38 by keops keops
BP allowed it so I dont mind either - I trust Ryg in this.
added on the 2005-09-25 21:45:50 by Gargaj Gargaj
At that time (Breakpoint) it seemed that they are going to implement it into the end-user-runtime, that didn't happen and it also seems that wont happen in the near future.
added on the 2005-09-25 22:23:52 by las las
i don't think it should be allowed. as smash says.. whats in the standard redist for endusers should be the guidelines for the coders.
but im using opengl so i don't have these problems ;)
fuckings to d3d<3 ;))
added on the 2005-09-25 23:30:42 by bzz bzz
I'm also against using it. The only legal way to supply the DLL version you need to the watcher is using their installer - so you can't even simply get that zip file, open it and run the demo.

That there isn't a static library anymore is one of the most screwed decisions of MS ever. Luckily there's quite an uproar amongst game devs because of that so if we all cross fingers this might change again.

But until then - D3DX is out of the game. Completely.
added on the 2005-09-26 00:22:22 by kb_ kb_
I'am also against it.

Most math helper functions are available in dx8vb.dll and higher level stuff too via a COM object if DX8 is enough for you (or maybe it can be even combined with DX9 enviroment?)
added on the 2005-09-26 11:19:32 by picard picard
What kb said.
added on the 2005-09-26 12:28:47 by Preacher Preacher
What kb said #2. I want my static libs back!
added on the 2005-09-26 12:41:06 by NeARAZ NeARAZ
game developers that use d3dx?
added on the 2005-09-26 13:28:49 by Hatikvah Hatikvah
Jumping on the "no way jose" bandwagon, although the glaring lack of this form of discussion on 64k intros using d3DX should be noted.
added on the 2005-09-26 15:19:49 by Shifter Shifter
just my opinion : i think using D3DX ( wherever ) is for lamers and thus sucks. if you cant do it in 4k without d3dx, it means you can not. you lost. you can not code that.
clear enough ?
added on the 2005-09-26 16:15:23 by apricot apricot
sure ;)
Shifter: essentially it's because the amount of code you can spare that way (1-2k, depending on what you use) is relatively little compared to a 64k, but in 4k it can take up a reasonable amount of space.
added on the 2005-09-26 16:54:00 by Gargaj Gargaj
just try to implement a mesh smooth algorithm (+ norrmal calc and such) and see how much space you have left for sound, models and action...
added on the 2005-09-26 17:29:15 by las las
ok some whining here:
las : since when are 4k about "how good can i pack import table since i have no my own code in an into" ?
( yes, you still have to code soundsystem, but with current trends it's simply because there's none in the standart libs, aint it ? )
added on the 2005-09-26 17:46:46 by apricot apricot
you mean intro coding (or generally democoding) has never been about cheating before? ok... if you say so.
added on the 2005-09-26 17:51:02 by Hatikvah Hatikvah
shifter: i dunno how many actually do use it in 64k. i know we dont, cos it's simply not worth the hassle with the dlls for what you gain.

added on the 2005-09-26 17:58:40 by smash smash
Add glut32 & SDL into the wagon.

Does the money & all the gizmos won at recent parties with 4k intros that should have been disqualified be refunded ?


Most math helper functions are available in dx8vb.dll and higher level stuff too via a COM object if DX8 is enough for you (or maybe it can be even combined with DX9 enviroment?)

dx8vb can be mixed with dx9, yes & it's useful to handle matrices & vertices, i don't know if this one is (still) distributed with the end user's directx.
added on the 2005-09-26 18:22:10 by hitchhikr hitchhikr