creative tracks in demos?

category: general [glöplog]
Let me add this <!-- BBCode u2 Start --><A HREF="http://lysis.audio-stream.net/trentetrois/music.html" TARGET="_blank">shameless link</A><!-- BBCode u2 End --> to overshadow skrebbel's ridiculeness.


added on the 2002-11-02 13:30:25 by 33 33
more music like ones in:

sanity: arte
lemon: groove


cannot remember all now...
added on the 2002-11-02 13:31:07 by uns3en_ uns3en_
Let me add this shameless linkto overshadow skrebbel's ridiculeness.


added on the 2002-11-02 13:33:56 by 33 33
Wow.. great threat. Tnx for your contribution to this..
loaderror: interesting thought..!
Although, I don't know, mp3 didn't bring THAT much new to the demoscene.. I see most tracks can be done in modules (well, probably they are.. :-) way smaller..
I mean, dnb: you don't really need mp3 to do dnb. Most can be done in a module quite well..?
Grunge and orchestral pieces are indeed better in mp3..

and well, just to oppose you: I am a big fan of purple motion.. I still *love* this sound..
added on the 2002-11-02 16:26:57 by phred phred
i want to have this music in demos! generally, more demos with music by up rough artists. for me personally i got the feeling that amiga demos almost always have great music. probably amiga musicians are better than those using pc ;P
added on the 2002-11-02 16:57:58 by robotriot robotriot
I mean, dnb: you don't really need mp3 to do dnb. Most can be done in a module quite well..?

Depends. I for one wouldn't wanna miss all the nice DSP stuff. Trackers, in their original sense, are pretty much obsolete these days (except for chiptunes etc).
added on the 2002-11-02 17:06:37 by tomaes tomaes
i'll remember you said that, robotriot ;)
added on the 2002-11-02 20:50:49 by reed reed
what tomaes said.
added on the 2002-11-02 22:28:31 by NoahR NoahR
Trackers are of coz not obsolete. I still prefer a good sounding tracker module instead of downloading 3 or 4 mb mp3's alone for the soundtrack of a demo.
added on the 2002-11-03 00:00:00 by Crest Crest
phred: blame kusma and lug00ber -- the kings of gabber wankers of the distorted drums.
added on the 2002-11-03 01:57:48 by irvin irvin
... or just blame kusma. he got me into this shit.
added on the 2002-11-03 01:58:03 by irvin irvin
Get some kooma stuff, this won't be usual dnb style ;)

btw: trackers are a real pain in the ass...
tracker rulz, fuck those who pretend they suck, maybe it just mean they never succeed making good songs without any effects.
added on the 2002-11-04 11:27:23 by __ __

people simply doesnt know how to do good stuff in trackers anymore. i still got some XM's by 187/PHT which is the best d'n'b i ever heard in the scene.

added on the 2002-11-04 12:08:33 by raver raver
There are sure some tracking experts/fanatics that can do some really neat stuff in 10 years old tracking software, like nagz, nighthawk, blz and kaneel etc. :)
(the software is not always 10 years old, but the concept is.)

But let's take a step back and go more into detail, why trackers suck for most purposes.

a) In classic trackers, we have a 2d-table (erm, yes, most tables are 2d ;)), in which we can fill hexcodes for build-in effects, the note-data, note cut/off info, probably we can define some intrument envelopes for panning, volume and maybe pitch too somewhere.

There are no seperate channels for intruments. Eventhing is linear. No modularity. No syntax colouring. (some have it, yes) That was just fine for 4ch tracks on amiga. And it was definitely a step forward compared to the script-language style of note data editing there was before. It was probably also fine later on, while the number of channels were strictly limited, there we had to take care for the amount of mixed stuff and so we had a reason for squeezing more than one instrument/sample in one channel.

Today, those issues are gone and as the amount of used channels grew, we have to face the limit of this simple architecture.The more complex the arrangement gets, the more confusing and unflexible is this way of composing. Sure, NNAs have reduced this problem quite a bit, but it's not available for every classic tracker. Freely (re-)organisable pattern data? No chance, even if mpt supports block data drag & drop. Simple effects like delays and reverbs can be faked yes, but again, this makes the data layout just more messy and unflexible and honestly, it doesn't sound too good.

To summarise: Modularity (both, in the way the note data and effects are handled) is a must have. It's like the difference between the oldschool way of coding vs. OOP style. Buzz went in the right direction while making other mistakes.

b) The quality. 32bit or 24bit support for samples? No. I for one don't like to have a gfx program that is limited to 16bit colours. The difference might be not that obvious, but in a more subtile way, it's needed. Stereo samples? Compressed samples? You get the point...

c) Samples = static sound data. Real envelopes? No. Pitching the note data for full octave ranges? D'oh, ok, FT2 introduced intruments (nothing else but multisamples with some evelopes) . Nice, but no solution at all.

d) Midi support? Nah. 'Expandable' i'd say. :)

e) Real time recording of parameter tweakings? No, everything is programmed. Again one might point to Buzz, but then again, I don't count this one to the 'classic tracker programms' avalanche.

f) ASIO? Hahaha. Some very few newer ones have beta-implementations.

Conclusion: Classic Trackers were fine stuff for amateur musicians. 10 years ago. They are still useful for some special tasks, like 64k intros or anywhere else where small & hw-independent tunes are in need. Chiptunes aswell. Fast 30 minutes fun tunes too. Cool for trying some ideas quickly. For drum patterns too. For everything else, there are simply more decent audio softare architecture available.
Trackers are software samplers with a rather crappy build-in one-way sequencer. Interesting as VSTi though. :)

...they never succeed making good songs without any effects

I did. And it's not like trackers don't have any effects. :) Probably some die-hard-trackers are afraid of new technology. I'm not. :)

Heck, I even thought of coding my own dream-audio-software what leaves all the crap behind and that's still compact enough to get not bloated. But I came to the conclusion that a project like that would take 2 years of my lifetime. And I'm not THAT crazy. :)
added on the 2002-11-04 12:47:15 by tomaes tomaes

tomaes, we all know that :)

wouldnt you agree thought that the final result is all what matters?

added on the 2002-11-04 13:13:23 by raver raver
sure. i never declined that. :)
added on the 2002-11-04 13:21:54 by tomaes tomaes
i guess the problem with using good tunes in demos is that you get all flamed for ripping, even if its not ripped our demo at bcn party had this problem..

so i guess we're back to basic with doskpop or dnb shit again ;p
added on the 2002-11-04 13:23:42 by Hatikvah Hatikvah
lator, it's not the style that is important. You just have to remember to not make it sound like it's as good as something on a real cd or so.
added on the 2002-11-04 13:25:17 by steffo steffo
yeah true, ripping is when it sounds good!
so i guess tinnitus synth will go warm in the future, that makes it more of a scene prod i guess ;))
added on the 2002-11-04 13:25:57 by Hatikvah Hatikvah

its all about mastering

added on the 2002-11-04 13:31:03 by raver raver
isn't it funny how some artists have modules released on vinyl and cd?

Tomaes: So, you're musician, I guess.. :-)
Me too..
And I see that it is really hard to do cool techno with the common trackers.
I tried to do the synth separate and record it then in WAV and put it as sample into the tracker.. yeah, it works quite well.. dunno if that is the original idea of trackers.. :-)

Anyway, I bought some GREAT sample CDs (anyone knows them here: From Peter Siedlaczek, classic orchestra..? They are just TOO great..!!)
and now.. I just wanna have a sampler.. and MPT serves me best for this:
Having a sample each three halftone and putting them into instruments and stuff.. I don't need more than that. And in the end I convert it to MP3 because it's much smaller like that.. (>400 samples)..
I don't think, trackers are dead..
added on the 2002-11-04 22:02:01 by phred phred
So, you're musician, I guess.. :-)
I'm pretty much everything, I guess. :) But if I should compare music vs. coding vs. gfx, I enjoy making music the most. :)

And I see that it is really hard to do cool techno with the common trackers.
Clear and repetitive rhythm structures are usually one of the strengths of trackers. Their way of handling the whole sequencing of note data (+highlighting every x-row) supports this quite well.

I just wanna have a sampler
There are tons of them for your favourite vsti/dxi environment. :) Some of them feature a tracker-style interface, like the upcoming cyberide (check discodsp.com).

I don't think, trackers are dead..
Don't think so either. I just pointed out the drawbacks.
added on the 2002-11-04 23:11:59 by tomaes tomaes
trackers aren't dead, but maybe we should point at the fact tracker's known creativity is dead now.....
OMG i r gonna be flammed for that ehehe

most of the people releasing good cds or vinyls are only a little part of those known in the demoscene.
dune, stereoman or necros even.
Or maybe all these trance kiddiz... i don't dream, i don't dream about releasing cds anylonger.

i should say something important ot my mind, yea you criticize musicians for not being creative, sure it's a fact BUT let's talk about some coders........ ho yea they code it's cool i couldn't even, but what happen when a musician give something to a coder and the coder say, that the beats isn't 4/4, that it's too messy, that it's a bit odd and weird (and not souding like a dune song at all)......................yea all the demo tunes can sounds the same, but it's not only due to the trackers. I know many coders who'll say: hey that tune lack a bassdrum! you should add; who are they to advice the tracker?
again they could say: hey no i don't want that tune, it's too odd, ppl won't understand, so add a normal bassdrum and a normal snare (to understand: yea that samples everyone over-heard!)

i'm not here to criticize, but maybe for trying to make you understand that if trackers aren't that creative, it's not only due to them.

hey, and what about those ppl thinking that a lame trance untz untz beats + naive lame "melodies" for nerd are so c00l?????
added on the 2002-11-05 12:08:44 by __ __