does ZX Spectrum platform needs to be subdivided?

category: general [glöplog]
1) There's no demos with Scorpion milticolors without Pentagon support. And you should have known that Scorpion has at least 3 different timings.
2) There's only one demo _tied to a disk interface_ other than BETA 128: First Association. And it has TAP version. In ex-USSR the main reason behind "128K only" (with BETA 128) demomaking was Pentagon. Other widespread clones of the time (Scorpion/KAY, Profi, ATM Turbo) had more memory.
3) AFAIK there's no Pentagon 48K demos on Pouet. And I know only mine. And there's no reason for anybody to make more.
4) PauloFalcao and KeyJ include Pentagon into "Enhanced" category. Shockwav3 makes it into "clones" category. So it's VERY disputable. I proposed double division in which both sides (proud Pentagon owners and the rest) could find their divisions.

If you look into other platforms, you see no division between AGA and AGA accelerated (that is crucial!) but you see "MSX 2 plus" category with 3 demos. There's no common method. Each scene has its own traditions.
I second the 48k/128k/Enhanced split with 128k being the default.
added on the 2013-03-28 10:54:18 by KeyJ KeyJ
Hey, now that Alone Coder mentions it, I indeed said the same thing three and a half years ago already :)
added on the 2013-03-28 10:56:47 by KeyJ KeyJ
Alone Coder, I'm offer to do the things, that is INDISPUTABLE for now:
1) separate 48k
2) separate Enhanced

Where to include Pentagon - is TOO disputable. So i'm offer to not touch it and leave it at default category.

PS Alone Coder I'm still can't get your point. If to be consistent, Pentagon must be a fully separate Category because (as you say) it's too different from 128k. But then we will need another one category - "Enhanced Enhanced" for "Pentagon 1024 / ATM 2", because it differs even MORE. It's too much separation for pouet. Don't you think?
added on the 2013-03-28 11:12:27 by diver diver
In the future, "Enhanced" may be divided into standard/nonstandard. When the standard establishes. For now, it may be ZX Evolution where most of enhanced stuff work.
@diver, if you separate Enhanced in your way, it will be YOUR WAY, not default way.
gargaj, shall we vote or what?
it seems that there is no 100% clear decision, only majority decision is possible.
added on the 2013-03-28 11:45:13 by diver diver
Alone_Coder: "If you look into other platforms, you see no division between AGA and AGA accelerated (that is crucial!) but you see "MSX 2 plus" category with 3 demos. There's no common method. Each scene has its own traditions."

Oh, yeah. Placebo demos looks better with Turbo button pressed on. Shall we separate them into "ZX Turbo" category?
added on the 2013-03-28 13:39:06 by diver diver
@diver, accelerated demos simply won't run on stock Amiga. They use 68020 instructions.
My vote for:
1. 48k
2. 128k
3. enhanced
@6b65792d6a6565, what is "enhanced"? Does it include Pentagon specific demos like this?
@alone_coder, everything that is not running on normal sinclair (or amstrad) made spectrum 48k, 128k, +2a, +2b, +3 should be placed in "enhanced". do you see any reason not to?
added on the 2013-03-28 16:25:24 by bonefish bonefish
if you are such a "racist" of "normal sinclairs", so let's make two real categories:
1. 16K ("normal sinclair")
2. enchanced.
added on the 2013-03-28 17:41:55 by abscess abscess
I'll stick with a seperation between Sinclair/Timex and clone/enhanced machines. Seperation between ramsize seems a bit nitpicky to me, since 128k machines would run 48k demos as long as the timing is maintained.
added on the 2013-03-28 17:51:45 by shock__ shock__
There are a lot of questions.

1. Is any division of Spectrum prods really needed?
2. Divide at once (by a list) or categorize prod after prod?
3. Should a prod have 2 categories if it has 2 versions, or if it has setup for 2 machines, or in some other case, or in any case of compatibility, or never?
4. If a prod works on lower model and has optinal support for higher model (for example, optional General Sound music), which one to write? Or both?
5. If a prod works on higher model and has a part (or parts) for lower model, which one to write? Or both?
6. Is 16K category needed?
7. Is 48K category needed, with or without 16K?
8. Is 48K+AY category needed, distinct from 48K? Maybe 16/48K unexpanded is one category, and 48K+AY is another?
9. Is 128K category needed, distinct from Uncategorized?
10. Should we divide original machines vs. clones? How we say the prod is for original machine or for a clone? Or should we divide tape prods vs. disk prods? Or one part vs. multipart? Or simple loaders vs. loaders with music? Or multicolor/border demos vs. ordinary demos? Or how? We need a solid criterion.
11. Should we put 128K clones with other clones? or with original machines? or in a distinct category? Or a distinct category for Pentagon only?
12. What is to be done with demos for original machines with additional accessories, for example 128K+DivIDE streaming video?
1. most definitely, because comparing zx-evo vs 48k+ay is almost like comparing a a1200 vs c64.
2. divide once by a list, and then fix/update gradually as we found the mistakes.
3. same as with other platform - you specify the lowest/slowest platform that it support.
4. lower model
5. if it's designed to work primarily on high model (but work on lower by skipping some parts), then it's for higher model - it's just a common sense.
6. i don't think so, but i would like to see it anyway
7. 48k definitely (which includes 16k)
8. 48k would include ay, as it is a standard for demo making (same as 1mb expansion with amiga500 ocs/ecs)
9. i would opt for 128k, as most of the non pentagon demos will end up in this category. (someone just suggested, on page before this, that 128k would be a default category after a split)
10. original is original, clone can be as categorised as original if demo is working on original also. if it doesn't work on original, it's obviously "enhanced"
11. if you take a look at my first post in this topic, I suggested separate category for "pentagon", but it didn't went well with others. for other clones, same answer as 10.
12. on a first, I would put this as a "enhanced", but DivIDE seems to be standard nowadays, so it's something that should be discussed. on the other hand, is it a proper demo? if you have a streaming video played by PC, then it's not a demo.

@abscess: please keep it on topic. if you don't agree with the separation that most of the members here suggested, please let us know why is that.
added on the 2013-03-28 20:10:10 by bonefish bonefish
@bonefish, there are people who want Pentagon in 128K category (about three of them) and there are people who want Pentagon in Enhanced category (about three of them too). Other people did not mention where they want Pentagon.

And nobody said how to decide the demo is for Pentagon or for another clone. For example, is Condommed a Pentagon demo (it has optional Pentagon setup)? or a 128K demo (which can't be TAPed though because of loaders with music and simplistic action)? or it's a Clones demo (it works on a number of clones)? or it's a BETA 128 demo? or it's an Enhanced demo?

So, there's no common separation.
there will be always few examples that won't fit in any category perfectly, but that's no reason to leave everything in one single category. as goes for pentagon demos, i give my vote for a dedicated category.

of course, naming is important, so that they don't end up separated (sorted alphabetically):
1. zx spectrum 48k
2. zx spectrum 128k
3. zx spectrum - pentagon
4. zx spectrum - enhanced

if "dtv" can have its own "c64 dtv" category, i don't see why we wouldn't have the same for the "pentagon".

what do you think?
added on the 2013-03-28 22:01:53 by bonefish bonefish
if it doesn't work on original, it's obviously "enhanced"

I absolutely disagree. There are lots of Pentagon-only demos that fail on an original Spectrum for totally mundane reasons that have nothing to do with use of "enhanced features".

To give an extreme example: in the past, I have fixed Pentagon-only demos to run on an original Spectrum by patching ONE byte (changing the interrupt vector to point to high memory). Those demos were not designed for enhanced hardware. They were just incompatible because the coder didn't know any better. (Which is entirely understandable: for a Russian coder in 1999-2000, real Spectrums probably weren't even on their radar.)

You could make a very tenuous argument that the demos that slow down to half speed on a real Spectrum (because they over-run the frame time) are designed for an "enhanced" Spectrum that can run 72000 cycles per frame rather than 71000. I don't buy that argument, because the coder never went "Hell yeah! I'm going to write an effect that uses the enhanced features of the Pentagon". They just did what every Spectrum coder does, and filled up the frame time with more and more operations until they couldn't add any more.

Broken multicolour effects are somewhere in between, but again that's not a sign of an enhanced platform. The Pentagon's video timings aren't *better* than the Spectrum's, just different.
added on the 2013-03-28 22:45:01 by gasman gasman

Hiya guys,

definitely what Yerza said:


More categories would be confusing and, in the end, useless. Unless some of the new developments pick up the momentum which is unlikely.

added on the 2013-03-28 22:46:42 by raver raver
raver (any anyone else placing a vote for 48k / 128k / Enhanced): do you consider the basic Pentagon machine to come under "128k" or "Enhanced"? This seems to be the one remaining point of disagreement.
added on the 2013-03-28 22:56:20 by gasman gasman

Obviously Pentagon goes with 128k for all the reasons stated.

added on the 2013-03-28 23:19:06 by raver raver
@gasman, do you think a prod is for a lower model IF a hacker CAN adapt it to work on this model? I think differently. I think a prod is for a lower model IF the download link provided RUNS on this model WITHOUT CHANGE. I have two reasons for that:
1. You can't tell at once: CAN a prod be adapted or not. One user may think it can, another user may think it can't. But if we divide by file formats - it's simple and resultative and can be done even by a script.
2. There are hackers in China that adapt SNES games to NES, definitely another platform.

So, the division in basically as follows:
a) "You can run it on your ZX Spectrum 48K"
b) "You can run it on your ZX Spectrum 128K"
c) "You can run it on your Pentagon 128K"
d) in future maybe: "You can run it on your ZX Evolution"
e) the rest.
Alone_Coder, so then you need more categories to divide the releases between the file formats:

a) You can run it on your something with TAPE
b) You can run it on your something with BetaDisk/TR-DOS
c) You can run it on your something with DISCiPLE
d) You can run it on your something with PlusD
e) You can run it on your something with divIDE
f) You can run it on your something with some other device
added on the 2013-03-29 07:13:54 by diver diver
Alone_Coder, and btw, what about releases in .SNA and .Z80 format? What category is it?
added on the 2013-03-29 07:50:22 by diver diver