Intros: Size limit or not?

category: general [glöplog]
Considering there have been many 'non-size-limited' intros around, and the comments on them about if demos should have or not a size limit... you can go in and post your oppinions here.

Mine goes like: I've been a scener since 1992 (started as a tracker... been coding since 1994)... for the time I've been so, I've always had the idea that 'intros' were demos with a size limit.

Applying to the word 'intro' by itself (no prefixes or anything), that was typically 64kb limit on PC, and 40kb on Amiga (although lately Amiga has gone up to 64Kb, for what I know). You could then apply prefixes to the word 'intro' to change its meaning and/or limit, e.g., 4Kb intro, 512b intro, 128b intro, etc.

There are also some special types of intros which don't really have a limit, and which are usually a compound word (xmastro, invtro, dentro), or used with the longer prefixed 'intro' word (invitation intro, xmas intro, etc.).

To quote some of the FAQ's hanging around in the net:

From the Computer Demos - Story so far page, widely linked on many demoscene related sites:

The difference between a demo and an intro is the size of the programs. The maximum allowed hard disk space for demos is usually 4 megabytes, but for intros to limit is usually only 64 kilobytes (40 kilobytes for Amiga intros). Assembly'94 was the first big demo party have a 4 kilobyte intro competition. Nowadays there are even more extreme intro competitions e.g. 256 byte intro competition.

This page also talks about how 4kb intros didn't have any music because rules didn't permit (and some of you now complain if a 4kb intro doesn't have any music). I remember having posted a comment like this on some 4kb intro.

From the Orange Juice FAQ:

There are three main kinds or types of demos :
- intro 4k : limited size and no music (mostly)
- intro 64k : limited size, no other restrictions.
- demo : virtualy no limit.

Although this is rather incomplete, and doesn't clarify a lot.

Translated from the Spanish Demoscene FAQ:

There are two classifications: intros created specically for a compo, which size can be 4, 40 or 64kb, depending on the category, and on the other size, intros made with a distinct goal, which size is usually around 10 and 500kb.

- BBS Intros. Announcing a BBS and its services
- Invtros. Intros where they announce a demoparty
- Borntros. Intros where they announce the birth of a new group (*)
- XMastros. Christmas Intros
- Jointros. Intros made by new group members
- Membertros. Intros made to show the list of members

(*) Also made to 'celebrate' the birth of demoscener kids :-)

I consider the latter types of intros 'demos', but just the compund word would be worse:

- Invmo? Bornmo? Xmasmo? Joinmo? nah, i'd rather use the 'tro' ending

Same with 'Trackmo's... one would never made a 'Tracktro', would they? It's all a matter of semantic beauty, and should not interfere with what (I consider) is the real meaning of 'intro' (that is, a demo with a size limit).

My 2 cents =)
added on the 2004-01-02 21:00:46 by Jcl Jcl
To put it simply... I think the 'intro' category on pouet.net, should only host 64/40Kb intros. The rest should go to demo (or it's relevant category) if it doesn't aquire any size limit.
added on the 2004-01-02 21:06:50 by Jcl Jcl
added on the 2004-01-02 21:10:49 by Wain Wain
the spanish demoscene fag ;)
added on the 2004-01-02 21:32:30 by superplek superplek
on the other hand, why not add the '64k intro' and '40k intro' categories to accompany the 4k/1k/256b/128b ones, and leave the other intros into the 'intro' category?

although since there's been some dodgy cases like adding short 2mb productions as intros, jcl's way would provide a better way to draw a line between what in fact is an intro and what's not :)
added on the 2004-01-02 21:42:53 by reed reed
who cares? does this really matter?

jcl, you seemed much cooler back in the days when csipd was still alive!
added on the 2004-01-02 22:08:20 by skrebbel skrebbel
Yes it does matter. It's not nice when you're on a 56k line, to find an "intro" that is many megabytes in size. And anyway...
Intro by my defination is 64k at max.
added on the 2004-01-02 22:48:50 by avx avx
(special intros can break this rule, of course, but there should be a different category for them)
added on the 2004-01-02 22:50:37 by avx avx
in clasical demoscene, intro is monolyth (one effect, one screen), while a demo is a larger collection of effects and usually multi-part.

Nowadays, everything is different. Intros are only limited by formal size - meaning you don't have space for gfx and samples. but both intros and demos are monolythic, though multi-screen/miltiple scenes. ultra-small (under 32K) are still one effect because of space limitation, but are formally not limited to be so.

Back in the old times, megademos were a real scene for competitions, while intros where more like simple leftovers from even further history. Compare this to BBStros, invtros, birthtros, and so on - they are nothing special, more for fun than for hardcore competition. Dentro is quite special, because it is a preview of an upcoming Megademo...

Nowadays, everything is different. Monolythic. Size makes more difference than the intention. Look at those 64k-Quality 10-meg demos and demo quality intros...

added on the 2004-01-02 23:11:10 by eye eye
I second reed. If it really matters that much, make separate 40k/64k/whatever-k intro categories but save the intro category. Because as everybody knows, size has nothing to do with whether something is an intro or not. Those prods you "consider demos" are intros, it's as simple as that.

Then again, I also agree with the "who cares" opinions. We should just concentrate on making new (preferrably good) productions, and leave the genre-wanking to those with nothing better to do. :)

Btw, some tracktros have indeed been released. A few of them actually used that name, too. Check out Arise's "40kb tracktro" for example. No, we do NOT need a new genre for that one. :P
added on the 2004-01-02 23:27:37 by break break
An intro is an intro, a demo is a demo, sometimes you have small demos (64ks) and big intros (8megs intros / whatever), but generally an intro suffers intro design, and a demo suffers from demo design.

Imo, and iam right :)

And yes, that guys is right, he kindof always is :)
added on the 2004-01-02 23:28:42 by Hatikvah Hatikvah
No Arneweisse it's nonsense. Demo and intro design can't be fit into just those 2 categories. Think before you speak.

I think size shouldn't be so categorical either. Just use loose guidelines and common sense. If you start making the intro category only for 64k then people will moan that 1mb demos being to short or whatever. But some people just moan because theyve nothing better to do.
added on the 2004-01-03 00:20:09 by Tongue Tongue
Ultimate Gas:
You make nosense :)
added on the 2004-01-03 00:47:07 by Hatikvah Hatikvah
i'd like to plug a major


added on the 2004-01-03 01:10:23 by superplek superplek
haha, sir richard kbab... i'm the same as in csipd... i just write less here (as everyone who was in csipd)... bring usenet back (and alive, that is), and i'll be exactly the same =)
added on the 2004-01-03 02:21:08 by Jcl Jcl
oh... and of course... i don't -really- care, for what i know today, the average 64kb intro quality is better than most released demos (probably because only skilled people tend to do 64kb intros lately), and I have a decent internet connection at home... still, it's all a matter of definitions, and categorizing (that's why categories exist, in first place), and I, as a scener (although pretty inactive lately), am interested to know the definitions of other fellow sceners (even those who don't care ;D) to be able to at least, communicate properly with them

That said, you can put my big I DON'T CARE also... I just wrote that coz I was having a bad day at work, and didn't feel like working anymore (a.k.a. boredom at work), and, of course, this post was made with the only intention to create a mini flamewar (to a extent, it succeded at it).

Bring back the good ol' times, I say
added on the 2004-01-03 02:35:15 by Jcl Jcl
the average 64kb intro quality is better than most released demos (probably because only skilled people tend to do 64kb intros lately)

that's a brand new flamewar in itself!

Oh, and you're wrong.

added on the 2004-01-03 04:33:23 by Shifter Shifter
As I stated in some "intro labeled" prod here on pouet, please leave intro category to less to 64k executables (being final versions kind of excluded)...

I also consider that maybe one fx/short prods could be named intros, but when I start downloading a prod in the "intro" category here on pouet and see it's 2mb in size, I just stop downloading :P
added on the 2004-01-03 05:10:16 by shash shash
as far as i can tell an intro for an intro competition will most likely be 64k in size, but sometimes you just have 1 effect to show and no music, so you go and ask your musician for some music and the guy gives you an mp3 file (wich most of the time is the cause for a 2mb intro)... not everyone has the skill to code a softsynth (ie: me) and i don't think we should kick those people out for trying to show to 'the scene' what they can do... even if it's just 1 effect. the thing is... can we call this production other names than "intro"... probably we should ;].
added on the 2004-01-03 07:30:58 by panoramix panoramix
i agree with the idea of adding "64k intro" as a category, but it would prolly lead to a huge amount of boring database-updating-crap, and be more hazzle than it's worth. until something like that happens, I'll continue adding simple demos as intros and not care about those of you who have dull net-connections.
added on the 2004-01-03 09:19:03 by kusma kusma
shifter: i still think, talking about percentages... there are very little -good- demos released lately, while most 64kb are pretty good (better than tthe bad demos) =)

so you're wrong! :D
added on the 2004-01-03 11:08:49 by Jcl Jcl
Hmmm, on my part, i'd likie a clarification on the 'dentro' term ...

What do you guyz think a dentro is ???

In my sense, dentros are intros that don't stick in the 64Ko limit, and are not demos either ( meaning not an heavy 8meg demo !!! ) . Just aunder the1/2 meg size ...

your view ?
added on the 2004-01-03 12:05:26 by kohai kohai
dentros are demos that preview a megademo (or, it has always been)
added on the 2004-01-03 13:22:05 by Jcl Jcl