pouët.net

Open sourcing pouet.net ?

category: offtopic [glöplog]
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by Hyde:
In fact, if there was no pouet tomorrow, I would shed no tears. But if I did, it would be on behalf of the poor sod that kept the site alive and functional before it was shot down by a nostalgic jerk.

Hey, chill :) analogue apologized and both analogue and Gargaj have reconciled. They and others are still here to "keep the site alive and functional". Gargaj is willing to continue work on on version 2. Nobody is killing anything.

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AMcBain: well, trust is earned, not automatically regained by a simple apology. It's a start though. Now we'll have to see what happens.
added on the 2013-05-13 00:48:35 by D.Fox D.Fox
amcbain: lol, I am not concerned about the well-being of pouet.net.
added on the 2013-05-13 00:53:14 by Hyde Hyde
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by D.Fox:
AMcBain: well, trust is earned, not automatically regained by a simple apology. It's a start though. Now we'll have to see what happens.

Quite so, but I still don't also think it's right to keep verbally beating on them. That's sort of how this thread ended up with so many pages. :-/
Well, it's an open forum on the internet. Beatings are what we do.
added on the 2013-05-13 00:58:19 by D.Fox D.Fox
Oh the double entendre.
added on the 2013-05-13 01:17:29 by Gargaj Gargaj
gargaj: i'm drunk, explain your french.
added on the 2013-05-13 01:33:11 by Hyde Hyde
Actually, having heard this only some bit ago, "double entendre" wouldn't mean anything to a native French speaker. The English is a corruption of a slightly different French phrase, but I don't remember what they actually use instead (it's not the phrase we corrupted). Thank you random QI episodes on YouTube.
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Of course the content is owned by whoever published it
I think this holds truth only for the comments, my assumption would be that prod-pages are owned by Analogue. The users used the pouet-website to generate these pages and filling out a webform can hardly be described as a creative process.

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it's not that anybody own copyright on their screenshots or sth.
I think they do. If I upload a screenshot of my own demo to pouet all rights by default stay with me, unless I signed them away.
The normal way of handling these situations is that by uploading you agree to allow the host to redistribute your work in any form they wish.
This could include making profit with it, and/or using it in ads.

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which probably—again—means that the site owner now owns that data and can do with it whatever he wants.
Like I said above this has more to do with stuff like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Related_rights. You'll remain the owner. The question ofcourse if this subtle difference matters anything if you see your comment or screenshot used in tv-ads for example.

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As far as the db dumps go, I'm gonna send Netpoet an email and ask about the legalities.
The prod-pages are clear if only if Analogue says so, given the fact that he wrote the code to generate them. If significant edits have been made to this part of the code, you'll need to get in touch with the people who committed relevant changes in here. The the screenshots are not clear. Just like the comments here in these bbs-posts, the rights belong to the individual people who made the comment/screenshot. If you want these in a dump you'll need to get the clearance of each individual who contributed to this dump.

Here in .nl there is a strong push to make these laws more flexible, which is somewhat unfortunate since this means a website owner can be prosecuted for stuff that a user writes, or for an image he links to.
IANAL but this my view on the legal side of the story.
added on the 2013-05-13 01:46:40 by numtek numtek
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by numtek:
I think this holds truth only for the comments, my assumption would be that prod-pages are owned by Analogue. The users used the pouet-website to generate these pages and filling out a webform can hardly be described as a creative process.

It was brought up before that most of this information is fact, determinable elsewhere before it was even uploaded to Pouet. As such nobody can own it, just like nobody can claim copyright to the sky being blue. This would include things like prod names, place it received in a compo, what party it was released at. All of that info.

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by numtek:
I think they do. If I upload a screenshot of my own demo to pouet all rights by default stay with me, unless I signed them away.
The normal way of handling these situations is that by uploading you agree to allow the host to redistribute your work in any form they wish.
This could include making profit with it, and/or using it in ads.
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by numtek:
Like I said above this has more to do with stuff like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Related_rights. You'll remain the owner. The question ofcourse if this subtle difference matters anything if you see your comment or screenshot used in tv-ads for example.

There is a ticket out on the GitHub project site for creating a proper Terms of Service that would give appropriate licensing / usage rights by uploaders to the site and various other legal entailings of running a site like this.

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by numtek:
If significant edits have been made to this part of the code, you'll need to get in touch with the people who committed relevant changes in here. [...] IANAL but this my view on the legal side of the story.

This is why he's getting in touch with Netpoet. Also, copyright and licensing of the code has already been resolved by the contributors many pages back. So there is no doubt about that anymore.
I wasn't talking about the copyright and licensing of the code, I mean the data. But is a good cause that people are thinking of a decent ToS. Just make it retroactively and be done with it :p
added on the 2013-05-13 02:28:30 by numtek numtek
Ah for fucks sake Knoeki, knock it off.
you mean... KNOEKI IT OFF!

ha. ha. :(
added on the 2013-05-13 03:50:59 by Tomoya Tomoya
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added on the 2013-05-13 05:33:29 by skarab skarab
ZING!! from Tomoya. Nice one.
I do actually miss the back and forth broney/spiderman-meme between knoeki an tjoppen.
Guys?
added on the 2013-05-13 07:46:43 by ringofyre ringofyre
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Gloom: I'm really concerned about what you did here. Page after page, you did nothing but fuel the fire.

If by "fuel the fire" you mean "was not willing to accept what was going on", then yes, you are entirely correct.

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In my opinion, the opposite of "let's pretend nothing happened and move on" isn't what you did.

I'm not sure if that double negative was intended or not, but "let's pretend nothing happened and move on" was not my intent at all, no.

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Gloom, these are your words (emphasis mine):
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As a community, I can't accept that we just stand back and watch while these events unfold.

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Analogue is getting resistance because he's in the wrong, and doubly so because of the way he responds to the resistance. The fact that he's unable to grasp just how badly he has behaved and mismanaged the situation just makes it worse.

I stand by those quotes a hundred percent, and by the likes of the feedback in this thread (and elsewhere), and the actual outcome of the situation, not a lot of people disagreed either - including Analogue.

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Gloom, you don't accept the situation: I get it. You raise your voice: perfectly fine by me. But please acknowledge my humble (hopeless?) resistance against your violent behavior. I feel outraged by the way you handled it: you mismanaged it, really. Post after post, you just spread more and more hate.

I'm not sure where this is coming from, but "spreading hate" is just wrong. I did not want to "just let it go", and telling someone they behave badly or mismanage a situation is hardly hate speech. If you feel outraged by that, then that's your issue, sorry. All I can say is that it sounds like you have some personal issue with me for some reason and are using this situation to fuel that in some way. Either way: nothing I can do about that. While I understand that you don't agree with my take on the situation, I cannot really understand this somewhat exaggerated response, no.

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Gloom, since we're not sharing projects together I believe we'll never have to disagree on something else than comments on Pouet. And in fact I feel relieved because you apparently use everything it takes to crush your opponents (from your own fame to networking).

What? :) Look: what limited "fame" I may have on Pouet is pretty limited to being someone who speaks their mind on the BBS. I think you'll find that usually don't play to my advantage. :) As for using said "fame" and "networking" -- to do what exactly? I don't think you really know what happened in this situation, and it sounds like you believe some of the trolls here with their insane conspiracy theories, but I assure you: my involvement in this whole thing is more or less limited to my comments and discussions in this thread.

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Again, that doesn't mean I'm with Analogue (we don't even know each other bla bla bla etc.). All in all Gloom, we didn't need your campaign against Analogue.

While I don't agree on the term "campaign" to describe my opinions in this thread, I respectfully disagree. If you feel my involvement wasn't at all required, then I urge you to re-read the thread with an open mind.

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We needed Analogue to have the guts to apologize.

No, we needed Analoge to have the sense to understand the situation, and yes, apologize. Reflection and outside opinions was what was needed, and that's exactly what happened as well.

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We needed Gargaj to get through the difficult pride/trust situation. Hopefully, that's how it ended.

I was perfectly happy to accept your little rant against me -- up until this point. The fact that you refer to it as a "pride/trust situation" just confirms that you don't know fuck-all about what really went down.

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Gloom, I wish we could have all read you after Analogue apologized.

Unfortunately I don't know what you mean by that.

PS: I don't know if you just read a really bad book about people management or if it's a language thing, but repeating my name/nick six times doesn't work the way I suspect you thought it would.
added on the 2013-05-13 10:33:32 by gloom gloom
Since I was fairly explicit before the situation was resolved, I'll chip in where I stand now.

Basically I'm with dfox:
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trust is earned, not automatically regained by a simple apology. It's a start though. Now we'll have to see what happens.


And I'll add that I don't think it's simple to publicly acknowledge that you've been wrong after ~40 pages of fairly direct and harsh critique. Going defensive and digging in for trench warfare is a more common response. Credit where credit is due.
added on the 2013-05-13 11:13:20 by lug00ber lug00ber
No personal issues. Whatever - it seems you won't ever admit you could have done it differently. Feel free to consider you managed it perfectly fine. You don't seem to be the kind of guy changing his mind. Being assertive isn't enough to be right. I don't have the time the read the 43 pages again right now but I think it was you who mention it was about both WHAT happened and HOW. I'm criticising HOW you reacted here: in a very virulent manner it seems.

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We needed Gargaj to get through the difficult pride/trust situation. Hopefully, that's how it ended.


I just mean in his position, I realize it's not so easy to accept coming back after having been locked out and after losing trust in the other party. Looking at Gargaj postings, it seems possible to get through the situation without witch hunting. But at that point I think you believe it's your writings that saved the situation.

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Gloom, I wish we could have all read you after Analogue apologized.
Unfortunately I don't know what you mean by that.

I expected few words of peace coming from you after Analogue apologized.

As gasman says
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and everyone learned an important lesson about friendship.


... it really seems to depend a lot on who you're friend with.


PS: no I don't read books about people management. Any good reference about crushing others I should read?
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by ٩๏&#:
Any good reference about crushing others I should read?

Try asking Zangief?

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No personal issues. Whatever - it seems you won't ever admit you could have done it differently. Feel free to consider you managed it perfectly fine. You don't seem to be the kind of guy changing his mind.

I think I change my mind as often or as infrequent as the next guy, however I don't really understand why I should post about "what I could have done differently", when the outcome is more or less to my satisfaction. I still believe it could have happened faster though.

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Being assertive isn't enough to be right.

I agree.

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I don't have the time the read the 43 pages again right now but I think it was you who mention it was about both WHAT happened and HOW. I'm criticising HOW you reacted here: in a very virulent manner it seems.

You're free to disagree with how I worded myself. If you feel I acted "violent" then sorry - I don't agree.

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I expected few words of peace coming from you after Analogue apologized.

Why? IMHO the apology came way to late and didn't address all of my concerns, but as lug00ber says above: it's good that it came. I don't go around praising people for doing what they should have done days ago, because it would be false praise.

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As gasman says

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and everyone learned an important lesson about friendship.

... it really seems to depend a lot on who you're friend with.


Actually, he said:

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TLM: Analogue wanted to open up the Pouet codebase, but people were concerned that this would interfere with Gargaj's work on Pouet v2. So then PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES PONIES and both versions were open-sourced, and Gargaj is still an admin and is still going to work on Pouet v2, and a bunch of other people have submitted security patches and new features, and people are working on getting as much data as possible available while staying on the right side of privacy/copyright, and everyone learned an important lesson about friendship.


..which is an important lesson in how to interpret a sarcastic summary, not so much about friendship. :)

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PS: no I don't read books about people management. Any good reference about crushing others I should read?


Not really, but you could probably do good with a little less drama.
added on the 2013-05-13 11:39:56 by gloom gloom
i think the screenshots should fall under fair use and be public domain. claiming the rights to something you release for free is like forbidding anyone to cite a speech you hold in public.
also, what jurisdiction are you talking about, anyway, are you trying to comply with any jurisdiction there is or just .nl, where the server is situated?
In germany there is the abstract idea of schaffenshoehe, meaning the degree of creativity involved, which screenshots surely dont qualify for. at worst you are saying nobody should upload screenshots here, unless with consent by the creator, maybe everyone involved, even the musician.
added on the 2013-05-13 11:43:46 by vectory vectory
vectory: screenshots falls under common "fair use" (or "quotation") rules and regulation, and will most likely not be any issue for any country with major Pouet representation.

With regards to juristiction, the "problem" is really two-fold: 1) right to upload (or actually: create a link to - Pouet doesn't host the demos or videos, just the description and screenshots), and 2) right to view.

In the case of the right to your own submission, kb nailed it a few pages back: your comments are yours, but you cannot claim right to uploaded prods.
added on the 2013-05-13 11:51:34 by gloom gloom
Can't you guys just stop being dicks once and for all and shut the fuck up knowing the fact that everything got solved?
You feed your own trolling.
added on the 2013-05-13 12:05:57 by iks iks
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And Gloom is seldom wrong.

*chucles*
added on the 2013-05-13 12:19:40 by kusma kusma

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