Dividing models by procesors

category: general [glöplog]
Рупор, о5 ты врешь как Троцкий
added on the 2014-01-17 09:57:27 by g0blinish g0blinish
Panowie, weźcie się w końcu dogadajcie! A jeżeli nie możecie dojść do porozumienia to dalsza kłótnia raczej już nie ma sensu! :)
added on the 2014-01-17 10:05:57 by Tomoya Tomoya
Hello there.
Just wanted to clarify the situation a bit.
As the author of TS-Conf I can only say that there's no other CPUs but Z80 inside of it, which is 8 bit and the bitness of the Sprites engine has a few to deal with a plaform bitness, IMHO. In general, my architecture is very similar to v6z80p, but was aimed to base upon ZX platform named Pentagon-128, which was a target platform to 99.9% demos in post-soviet Russia, generally hand-made.
ATM (not a money machine :) was a commercial product copyrasted up to the balls with a knotty design. The only reason why it is PR'ed now is a sort of crusade based upon own belief. Alone_Coder is flogging his fetish - ATM - to everyone and he's a pain in the neck at all Russian boards. :)

Z calym szacunkiem ta klotnia nie ma zadnego sensu. Po prostu facet siedzi w domu i boi sie wyjsc na zewnatrz, a realizuje sie wylacznie na sieciowych wojnach. :)
added on the 2014-01-17 10:24:27 by TS-Labs TS-Labs
To make an end here:
It would only make it harder to browse for what we want! Stop the discussion already, senseless! We keep it how it is and stays! If i want to see some ZX-prod i can easily make a search, if divided the easyness would be gone!
When we say "ATM!=Spectrum" we doesn't mean computers itself, we does mean at least gfx modes! Non-6912 mode is not a Spectrum. Neither on ATM nor Profi nor GMX. Independently of processor.

Btw, Alone, what do you mean by "16-bit video display processor"?
added on the 2014-01-17 10:39:08 by psb psb
hArDy., but we don't like to see alien prods in zx category. It's better to make "Spectrum on steroids" category and put stuff like with ATM gfx or other extenders there. For example, 3.5 MHz Spectrum and 20-50-200 MHz (on FPGA) are very different things.
added on the 2014-01-17 10:46:07 by psb psb
I want subdivision between models.
added on the 2014-01-17 11:25:33 by Optimus Optimus
the biggest problem for me is not even the cpu speed, but the graphics capabilities. if you see zx evo/atm demo that is using better than vga graphics (resolution and palette), and you see it categorised as zx spectrum (which has VERY LIMITING 255x192 with 8x8 attributes, 8 colors), one could thing that it's coder magic that did that thing, while it's just a usage of a totally different hardware. so, just because it's using the z80 and there is some things stollen from the original speccy ROM, doesn't make it speccy.

same goes for the soundcards on those enhanced "spectrums" - YM is the only one that is standard for spectrum, even that, unlike 128k, +2, +2a and +3, normal 48k didn't come with it. (but it's the same as amiga500 with 1mb expansion, or 386 pc with soundblaster - it's a classic demoscene expansion)

and I'm not talking out of the blue here, I understand the frustration because it actually happen to me few years ago - when I first saw "the board" demo. didn't run on a emulator (!!!), so I was watching youtube and immediately find myself thinking: "wooow, what effects!! how many different colored pixels!!! it's even non-standard color palette!!! this guy is a genius!!!"
only to be disappointed a few minutes later when I discovered that it runs on the FPGA board that has NONE of the limitations of the zx spectrum. it's like start calling DTV demos C64 demos.
added on the 2014-01-17 11:35:41 by bonefish bonefish
Yes, even though you can realize it soon enough.
For me, it's just interesting to search and find all the ATM demos or all the dos 386 demos, etc.
I guess I should hang out more at Demozoo if it's gonna be like that.
added on the 2014-01-17 11:46:02 by Optimus Optimus
Especially on PC, it's even harder to classify demos, because of the wide range of hardware.
I mean, some demos will technically run on a 386, but will require a fast 486 or even a Pentium to get good framerates.

Amiga AGA has a similar problem, many productions require an accelerator, often with a more advanced CPU than the stock 68020 (eg requiring an FPU).

So where exactly would you draw the line? 'Good framerate' is a very subjective thing.

Trying to categorize such demos is difficult. The minimum specs required to run the demo will be different from the specs required to enjoy the demo as it was intended.
I think minimum specs are more important though, as they tell you what will work. Whether you will enjoy the demo or not is subjective anyway.
added on the 2014-01-17 12:00:43 by Scali Scali
Yeah that too. Demo will say it requires 386 but it could be unwatchable there, depending also on the gfx card bandwidth, etc.
added on the 2014-01-17 12:15:37 by Optimus Optimus
My idea is to maintain 2 categories for ZX related platforms: ZX and ZX Extended. ZX is for 6912 only machines and Extended is for either ANY accelerated or just improved gfx as well as for external computational facilities, like co-CPU.
added on the 2014-01-17 13:23:45 by TS-Labs TS-Labs
Woow. TS-Labs/Goblinish channel is out to pouët to spread lies.

"ATM (not a money machine :) was a commercial product copyrasted up to the balls with a knotty design."
ATM Turbo 7.10 was put in public domain by its authors, MicroArt, back in 2001, and all the PCBs and sources were granted to "do everything you want".

"Это было в личной беседе а) Со мной Андрея Джинчарадзе, когда он мне передавал оставшиеся платы и софт - типа "берите и пользуйтесь", б) Вроде бы что-то говорили Роме, когда они ему бесплатно дали все PCB-исходники разводки (как раз и разрешив их использовать как угодно). Другими словами - PCB-исходники разводки , которые только и могли быть раздобыты у МикроАРТа - это доказательство передачи в общественное достояние."

Since that, it was produced by NedoPC (Russia) and zorel (Ukraine).

For comparison, copyright status of your "ts-conf" based on GPL-licensed "baseconf" is uncertain.

@psb: I mean video processor alike TurboGrafX 16 (the machine marketed as the first 16-bit console despite having a 8-bit CPU). This device accesses memory by 16-bit chunks, so, for example, you should use the blitter only for even number of bytes. For comparison (again), Pentagon 1024 and Pentagon 2.666 which do have colour-per-pixel modes are fully 8-bit.
@bonefish: The Board runs on plain ATM Tubo 2+ without problems. Maybe you mean The Link that requires second CPU?
Take his KB away plz... m(
added on the 2014-01-17 14:24:44 by TS-Labs TS-Labs
AlCo, if you stop masturbate at #z80 logs, you will blind=)
added on the 2014-01-17 14:33:09 by g0blinish g0blinish
I'll add that the Thomson TO7 (1982, 8 colors, 8x1 color blocks) has a 16 bit RAM path for the video generation. But the TO8 (1986, 4096 colors, new modes without constraint blocks) has an 8-bit one again thanks to faster RAM.
@alone_coder: nope, i was thinking about "the board" (still remember like it was yesterday), but "the link" I haven't seen before, and is even more impressive. respect!
anyway, both releases proves the same thing - what we already agreed on in a separate thread, so I won't be hijacking this one anymore.
added on the 2014-01-18 10:14:26 by bonefish bonefish
btw how do you respect demo for the lame Alonestein-effect?
added on the 2014-01-18 11:36:14 by g0blinish g0blinish
heh, it seems to me that you really don't like alone_coder for some reason? ;))

won't get into fight between two of you, but not to let you down, I also have a big respect for your work - you'll probably find my thumbs up on few of them.

hope that two of you will manage to resolve your issues one day, or if not, at least there will be a shitload of demos and intros with scenedrama(tm) scrolltexts. :))
added on the 2014-01-18 12:14:48 by bonefish bonefish
bonefish, how models must be subdivided?
two - ZX 48k and ATM for a sake AlCo's prods take position at the top?
added on the 2014-01-18 12:33:12 by g0blinish g0blinish
I believe that we've already come to the conclusion here (not 100% what i've wanted, but I'm okay with it as long as evo and atm2 are not in the same category as a normal speccy)
added on the 2014-01-18 12:54:21 by bonefish bonefish
@g0blinish, if you can't make anything worthy for 48K that's your problem, no?
at least I suppose what AlCo's purpose is put demos to teh top.Hypocrisy is a sin.
Ouch, here is a quote from the IRC log:

so, subdivision doesn't make any sence. except ZX eVo+TS-Conf.
added on the 2014-01-18 13:39:05 by g0blinish g0blinish