Demoscene social issues

category: general [glöplog]
TLDR; but...

At revision I spent quite some time looking for a place where I could talk to boyc. A place where I don't have to scream, look on a notebook-screen and have a chat. We finally settled for the toilet tunnel where we stole the sofa from the kids who were playing JCO's game.

If revision would be (only) such a place it would probably be the most boring party ever I wouldn't go there, but having a "quiet zone" would be incredibly awesome. Let's assume it could be how the sleeping area is used during the day.

I personally would find it a blessing, if "party" and "talking/hacking/sleeping" would be slightly more segregated - I love dancing til 5 in the morning but I also love sleeping comfortable once I get too wasted.
added on the 2015-04-19 15:15:09 by pixtur pixtur
Yes, here we have it - art being called "sexual harassment".

Oh for the love of all that is holy NO NO NO. He was saying that if you e.g. get groped at a party and you think it was wrong, but you look around and see you're surrounded with people watching porn you'll conclude that it's the standard attitude in the scene. And even if a demoparty is better than any similar event like that, how would they know if they just had a negative experience?
added on the 2015-04-19 15:18:04 by Gargaj Gargaj
and re-chewing a just poorly chosen expression by scamp is equally sad :)
added on the 2015-04-19 15:20:10 by Maali Maali
it's time the PC-vegans of the demoscene all grow a beard, buy an AK-47 from ebay and teach the infidels a lesson or two!
added on the 2015-04-19 15:21:50 by Maali Maali
Gargaj, do you personally know somebody who had a negative experience in this regard?
added on the 2015-04-19 15:22:08 by rp rp
Yes, here we have it - art being called "sexual harassment".

Oh for the love of all that is holy NO NO NO. He was saying that if you e.g. get groped at a party and you think it was wrong, but you look around and see you're surrounded with people watching porn you'll conclude that it's the standard attitude in the scene. And even if a demoparty is better than any similar event like that, how would they know if they just had a negative experience?

By applying common sense maybe. One person watching porn in a hall of 1000 doesn't necessarily mean that all of the visitors are perverts. I mean, last I checked, people STILL DO have the ability to reflect and think of their own accord, don't they?
added on the 2015-04-19 15:23:29 by D.Fox D.Fox
pixtur: or you could check out this thing called 'outside' if you wanna have a normal voice conversation.
added on the 2015-04-19 15:23:53 by Maali Maali
What I find most interesting in this thread is, that some people who all seem to come from the same side, try to stop the discussion.

They're not trying to stop the discussion, most of them are simply wondering why there is a discussion at all.

So. This thread has touched a lot of topics already that could easily have their own threads, so let's get back to the original one: It was you who first complained about all those drunk people and how sad it was that they didn't remember you because they were so intoxicated and how horrible everything was because of that.

Others just argued that actually, the demoscene is one of the friendliest subcultures on this planet and although people at parties like drinking they are still very open, welcoming, and a lot of the shit that normally goes down in society just doesn't happen at demoparties. Listen to the people who quoted "ousiders" such as neighbours or security guards - those all were amazed about how well people are treating each other in contrast to what they normally knew about human behaviour.

There is broad consensus spanning all "sides" of this "discussion" that people should behave at their bast, care for each other and respect each other even if we might disagree. And this, at least in my opinion, is all one should ever need to ask for. This is how the scene despite all its flaws (note: less that most of the rest of society) and despite all incidents in the past (note: see last note) thrived so well.

Now, let's turn this up a notch and get to the root of the problem: You had bad experiences at Revision. So far, so bad. But: Have you ever considered that just maybe, the problem is _you_? You complain about people not remembering you, but have you considered the possibility that they speak to tens or hundreds of others on any day at Revision, and you just can't remember everyone? Like, _before_ you jump to conclusions and blame it on intoxication? Might you be overestimating your own importance there?

I know, everyone is the center of their own universe and the realization that the whole world can easily go on without you is a hard one. But this is life. In my case it took me years of talking to people at parties before random people started to remember who I was, and hey, persistence eventually paid off. bigtime. Also, being in a group helps, and it's best when your group consists of your actual friends.

So. What is it? Are you prepared for the fact that even one of the most welcoming subcultures needs some effort to "get in"? Do you realize that in the demoscene almost everyone contributes to it, be it with compo entries or helping to organize a party or even providing web space? Or are you going to pull a Ringo, not give a fuck about anything the scene is about and constantly shit on everyone because you're like so much better than everyone else with your job and family and shit, and finally going all bwaaaaaaaaaah when people are calling you out on that behaviour? Your choice.
added on the 2015-04-19 15:24:28 by kb_ kb_
I love how people say that to voice your concern about something or are feeling uncomfortable, you should talk to an organizer and they will take care of it. Then, at the same time, not being comfortable about something is equated to fascism and people are being told to fuck off.

I've enjoyed demoparties for years but if anything, this thread makes me feel like I want to enjoy my vegan soya latte somewhere else.
added on the 2015-04-19 15:26:16 by Preacher Preacher
(...) a sponsor banner over there with a picture of a guy in bed with two half-naked women

Dammit, I didn't come to Revision yet but I remember a similar banner from last Breakpoint featuring a happy guy with half-a dozen happy women.

I understand that this decreasing in the number of happy women could disturb many people and, at the same time, is making the humorous quality of those banners decrease.

We are adults. Aren't we? I didn't read all this drama-centered thread but I find preposterous that some people think that we need more norms and even to define a code of good conduct.

Of course, it will always be some (presumably drunken) assholes and organizers must be strict with violent misbehaviour and so. But still I think that our community is much friendly and open minded than others.

And about children... Well, it's natural that some of you come with your family and that's a good thing (potential demosceners for a future, I hope) but, please, take in count that we make this demoparties to enjoy a form of art created for (mostly) adults.
added on the 2015-04-19 15:32:45 by ham ham
Preacher: this thread has not very much to do with stuff that goes on at demoparties anymore. So no reason to give up just yet.
added on the 2015-04-19 15:33:52 by D.Fox D.Fox
Preacher, you do realize that the two things were actually said by different persons, don't you.
added on the 2015-04-19 15:34:55 by kb_ kb_
Preacher: we need you! From all the intros, I like yours the most. I still remember how "Fiat Homo" kicked my bottom in 2005, mostly because well, I had "coder colors" + "coder music". I am working part time as we speak on some new experiments that most likely will be used for a newschool intro, just cannot promise I will deliver (work/life has priority, damn it, hence the _real_ frustration!). But it's OT :)
added on the 2015-04-19 15:45:24 by tomkh tomkh
@Maali: well. It was freaking cold and you couldn't read anything on the screen because of the damn sunshine. This is a an almost pervert combination. Damn you, nature!
added on the 2015-04-19 15:47:12 by pixtur pixtur
Of course I know that they were said by different people. I read through this whole thing, although I don't really understand why.

It's just the mentality that bothers me. I do know people who have been uncomfortable at demoparties, just like I have. For instance, a Famous Norwegian Coder puked on my laptop at Breakpoint and I had to spend quite some time cleaning it up and I recall at least four instances when a girlfriend of mine has said something about being uncomfortable regarding the behavior of certain people. Saying that "well that's just how it is" and "if you don't like XYZ, it's not for you and fuck off" and "if you're not socially comfortable with telling a drunken and obnoxious elite person to stop bothering you, you just have to live with it" might go well with some people's opinions or the laissez faire scene spirit or whatever, but it does bother me a lot. I can live with it and deal with it personally, and have, but it still doesn't feel right to me.
added on the 2015-04-19 15:48:53 by Preacher Preacher
Is it me, or do most demoparty invitations list "friendly scene atmosphere" or "scene friendship" as part of the party-features ? Thats your code of conduct right there - since way back.
added on the 2015-04-19 15:53:37 by GT GT
In many ways, the demoscene is inclusive and open and great and meritocratic in the best way possible. In many other ways, like every other scene and subculture and social environment, it does have its unique social and cultural issues and acknowledging and saying it out loud should in my opinion be lauded instead of reacting to it in an angry way.

But I'll shut up now and make a demo about it.
added on the 2015-04-19 15:55:29 by Preacher Preacher
Preacher: But what would be a possible solution to this that doesn't impede other people's enjoyment? Something like "you don't need to be that drunk" is a non-argument; as somebody said at Revision, the whole demoscene is a giant first world problem, and strictly seen nobody _needs_ to even be there. As I already stated, we're all doing this for fun. Now different people have different ideas of what constitutes 'fun' for them, and in let's sav 5% of cases two of those definitions and the people having them might clash with each other, as experienced by you, your girlfriends and a lot of other people.

But how to keep stuff like this from happening without making it worse for the other 95%?

A Code of Conduct is no solution. Furthermore, the whole CoC idea comes from a heavily American culture of horribleness if you look at the history of tech conferences and the world of shit that surrounds them. Nobody there wants to fix anything, everyone only wants to win. And I'd rather be in bed with six Viprinet models even if that makes a handful of people go "eww" than be in bed with stupid-ass MRAs on the one and Tumblr Feminists on the other side and get dragged into their idiot "culture war" that's solely based on carefully trained Pawlovian responses, thank you.
added on the 2015-04-19 15:59:47 by kb_ kb_
(fun fact II: That guy in the middle had no fun at all while shooting that picture because he was the only guy there and all the jokes were on him. Also, being groped? I attended parties with mostly drunk women and yeah, it happened to me, too. Almost as if objectifying your preferred gender is a pre-programmed human trait and alcohol makes people dumb enough to not put a stop to it.)
added on the 2015-04-19 16:04:06 by kb_ kb_
As for practical solutions. I don't know. From what I hear, a CoC has worked pretty well for some sci-fi fandom things where unpleasant things with weird people started getting out of hand, but I don't necessarily believe that they would work for the demoscene because of the cultural differences. I see no harm in having one either, though. I think awareness is the best way towards a general attitude of not being a dick, but I really dont know. What I do know is that if someone says that they are not comfortable with thing X that happens at the event Y they might otherwise enjoy, a discussion instead of a knee-jerk reaction never hurts.

Also, I am not in any way suggesting taking anything away from anyone. God knows I've been totally wasted and/or stoned at parties and enjoyed every minute of it, as well as destroyed my hearing with sleeping next to a huge-ass speaker. I've also been an asshole on more than one occasion, for which I've apologized to the people concerned.
added on the 2015-04-19 16:15:39 by Preacher Preacher
It was you who first complained about all those drunk people...

added on the 2015-04-19 16:20:57 by JTZ JTZ
Argh. Shit, you're right. I should have researched instead of relying on my memory, sorry :/
added on the 2015-04-19 16:23:32 by kb_ kb_
No problem.
added on the 2015-04-19 16:27:14 by JTZ JTZ
"All you need is love"
-John Lennon, smart guy! <3
added on the 2015-04-19 16:44:27 by response response
@ response: he left out booze, so he was obviously not THAT smart :)
added on the 2015-04-19 17:02:37 by maytz maytz