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Vampire 2 Amiga 600 FPGA accelerator

category: general [glöplog]
well, that ADA thread gives only accumulated values over all types of releases, probably tons of bootsector stuff and diskmags/slideshows. I think it would be more interesting to compare number of high-quality demo/intro releases.
added on the 2016-02-05 16:02:21 by spike spike
Yeah because no-one can enjoy watching or making that other stuff, right?

Please share your definition of "high-quality" so that we can disagree with it. :)
I do hope they'll eventually include FPU and AGA support but I still wouldn't want to see it as an Amiga compo machine.
added on the 2016-02-05 16:21:53 by dodke dodke
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I can get a used A600 for some bucks + 150 EUR for the Vampire and I have a top-notch amiga system

I have this crazy idea, how about you get that system and actually make a few awesome demos on it? That might actually be a better way to convince others to support the board, than ranting on a forum :D
added on the 2016-02-05 16:22:10 by britelite britelite
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What's incompatible about it? Lack of FPU?
It says (S)AGA is a planned update coming soon on the website.

Just because something is planned does not mean it will happen or actually work the way you'd hope... not to mention FPU is a CPU feature, rather than part of the AGA chipset.

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well, that ADA thread gives only accumulated values over all types of releases, probably tons of bootsector stuff and diskmags/slideshows. I think it would be more interesting to compare number of high-quality demo/intro releases.

Please do go ahead and compile that list because you're the only one here that seems to think there's not been many OCS/ECS releases in the past few years (:
FPGA = emulator that's written in a funny language and has very slow version updates
added on the 2016-02-05 21:53:19 by yzi yzi
Nicely made review for those who hasnt seen it yet
Amiga A600 Vampire II Hardware Accelerator - Tested and Reviewed
added on the 2016-02-05 23:51:33 by tFt tFt
If the experience of the Spectrum scene is anything to go by, I'm sure that over time the Amiga community will come to universally accept FPGA-based enhancements as a natural successor to the Amiga family.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAhahahaha
ha



h



a

*falls over*
added on the 2016-02-06 00:34:34 by gasman gasman
Gasman, you laughed all the oxygen out of your body.
added on the 2016-02-06 01:29:20 by CiH CiH
gasman wins the thread.
so then we come to the natural next question:
does Amiga platform needs to be subdivided?
added on the 2016-02-06 09:47:20 by v3nom v3nom
v3nom: It would certainly correct Amiga sceners' perspectives.
added on the 2016-02-06 10:22:16 by Sesse Sesse
Guys, why is everybody always getting so emotional over here, as soon as someone has a little different opinion about that holy amiga topic?
Let me get this straight: I always had the utmost respect to all amiga demo coders out there and I like the machine a lot (owning some A1200 and A3000 myself).

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Yeah because no-one can enjoy watching or making that other stuff, right?

Please share your definition of "high-quality" so that we can disagree with it. :)


Why people always claim "you don't allow us to enjoy other kind of productions" as soon as someone states that he or she likes well-designed, well-coded demos or intros that push the hardware? did i anywhere claim that i disregard funny little bootsector intros or things like that?

however, i think when talking about new hardware that drastically extends the capabilities of a machine to me it makes sense to look into things that potentially can show off those new capabilities - and for me naturally highly-engineered demos come to mind. and i doubt you can show me even 3 bootsector intros that anywhere make any decent use of a 060 or something. Can we please sometimes just stick to sensible stuff?

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I have this crazy idea, how about you get that system and actually make a few awesome demos on it? That might actually be a better way to convince others to support the board, than ranting on a forum :D


I'm mainly a PC dx11 coder and that's what I'm good at. I do my best to push boundaries there.
added on the 2016-02-06 10:38:47 by spike spike
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however, i think when talking about new hardware that drastically extends the capabilities of a machine to me it makes sense to look into things that potentially can show off those new capabilities - and for me naturally highly-engineered demos come to mind. and i doubt you can show me even 3 bootsector intros that anywhere make any decent use of a 060 or something. Can we please sometimes just stick to sensible stuff?

If we wanted to support new hardware we wouldn't be coding for the Amiga ;)
added on the 2016-02-06 11:18:13 by britelite britelite
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however, i think when talking about new hardware that drastically extends the capabilities of a machine to me it makes sense to look into things that potentially can show off those new capabilities

If I understand correctly, the accelerator provides two things:

1. A very fast 68000-like CPU that lacks features of the later 68k models used in Amigas, and instead provides its own "enhanced" instructions. In other words it's both forwards and backwards incompatible with actual Amiga CPUs.

2. A PC-like video card. Nothing wrong with that for running system friendly applications on Workbench, but I suspect that for Amiga demo coders it's the chipset that makes the platform interesting, not programming something that resembles VGA using a 68000.

You end up with a platform that has little in common with the Amigas the demoscene historically embraced, so reaching out to Amiga demo coders will probably get you nowhere.

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I'm mainly a PC dx11 coder and that's what I'm good at. I do my best to push boundaries there.

It's not unlikely that Amiga demo coders feel the same way, and will stick to the real Amiga hardware they're good at, instead of having to learn a new set of skills for a lobotomised version of their platform.
added on the 2016-02-06 11:26:41 by absence absence
I don't know....a Blizzard 1260 usually costs around 600€ on ebay if you are lucky, the Vampire costs around 150, not including shipping. It was a no-brainer for me to order this. Kipper told me there is plenty of room inside the FPGA for an FPU. :)
added on the 2016-02-06 11:59:05 by Exin Exin
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A PC-like video card.

My understanding was that it's an extension of the AGA chipset which is additionally also accessible through RTG drivers or similar. But I might be wrong here, have to check.

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You end up with a platform that has little in common with the Amigas the demoscene historically embraced


To me it seems having much more in common than e.g. ppc-amigas.

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will stick to the real Amiga hardware they're good at, instead of having to learn a new set of skills for a lobotomised version of their platform.


boy, for pc coders it's normal to learn new stuff every time a new 3d API version/extension is released. If we were like that you would still be looking at fixed-function vertex-lit single-textured crap..

If amiga coders still want to dick around with crappy chunky-to-planar routines that run at 10-15 fps on 060, fine. I just would have been curious to see what amazing things britelite, kalms, co. would be able to pull off.

That some people (Mawi, Elude, etc.) started to explore PPC stuff back in the days is a hint that not all amiga coders agree with "amiga scene = pure commodore hardware only".

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If we wanted to support new hardware we wouldn't be coding for the Amiga ;)

:)
added on the 2016-02-06 12:11:49 by spike spike
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My understanding was that it's an extension of the AGA chipset which is additionally also accessible through RTG drivers or similar. But I might be wrong here, have to check.

(Extended) AGA support is listed as a planned feature. If it gets added, then sure, the Vampire platform has more in common with classic Amiga than the PPC/RTG expansions or derivative platforms like MorphOS or OS 4.

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boy, for pc coders it's normal to learn new stuff every time a new 3d API version/extension is released. If we were like that you would still be looking at fixed-function vertex-lit single-textured crap..

On the other hand it sounds like you're unwilling to learn new stuff to make demos for the Vampire platform yourself. :)

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If amiga coders still want to dick around with crappy chunky-to-planar routines that run at 10-15 fps on 060, fine. I just would have been curious to see what amazing things britelite, kalms, co. would be able to pull off.

I personally don't find chunky routines in Amiga demos very interesting, as they make little use of Amiga features and could be done better on a 486. I just don't see the point of expanding the Amiga platform with poorly emulated hardware to let it out-486 a real 486, but to each their own of course.

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That some people (Mawi, Elude, etc.) started to explore PPC stuff back in the days is a hint that not all amiga coders agree with "amiga scene = pure commodore hardware only".

I think that back then there was still a desperate hope that "Amigas" with CPU replacements and 3D accelerators could compete with PC on equal terms. Today it's an oldschool/retro platform where the limitations are more interesting than making it go faster.
added on the 2016-02-06 13:14:19 by absence absence
ok, anyways, I understand the general sentiment, which was the main point of the original post. Everybody should do what he pleases in his spare time of course, sorry if i offended someone.

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On the other hand it sounds like you're unwilling to learn new stuff to make demos for the Vampire platform yourself. :)


Actually, that shouldn't be so hard. I have some nice integer-only texture mapping code and effects stuff lying around here, which should be rather easy to port to the vampire.
added on the 2016-02-06 13:37:44 by spike spike
Demo or die! :)
added on the 2016-02-06 14:17:19 by ham ham
Possibilities and limitations define the platform. What the expressive power is, what is easy, what is hard. If you want a different set of limitations, you want a different platform. As far as demos are concerned, in my opinion. There are lots of very fine and cheap PCs, no Amiga limitations there. Go grab yours, while supplies last.

FPGAs are just like emulators. If you want to code for WinUAE configured as some kind of GHz class 060, go for it, though I can't see why it would be interesting.
added on the 2016-02-06 14:34:31 by yzi yzi
Btw do you know about this project? http://www.kuchinka.cz/furia/
added on the 2016-02-06 14:41:12 by nula nula
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I don't know....a Blizzard 1260 usually costs around 600€ on ebay if you are lucky, the Vampire costs around 150, not including shipping. It was a no-brainer for me to order this. Kipper told me there is plenty of room inside the FPGA for an FPU. :)


The Vampire does not reimplement a 060 though, but rather a 040, with some reduced cycle execution time, so it might end up being not quite as compatible, timing wise (I would assume anyway, I'm no expert). As for the FPU, just because there's room for it, I wouldn't be buying something just because it *could* maybe at some point support something that should have been included from the get go.
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did i anywhere claim that i disregard funny little bootsector intros or things like that?


Yes. When we were talking about the OCS scenes' activity vs. AGA and your response to the hard facts was:

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well, that ADA thread gives only accumulated values over all types of releases, probably tons of bootsector stuff and diskmags/slideshows. I think it would be more interesting to compare number of high-quality demo/intro releases.


Anyway, the reason I latched on to this was because of the stated goal of breathing new life into the Amiga scene + the HW cost of getting into it.
My point was merely that the part of the amiga scene that releases most stuff right now *and* has seen the highest amount of new people joining / old sceners returning does not have a huge cost of entry. It's possible to get an A500 and have tons of fun. :)

I do however agree that the people most likely to be a target for a new high-powered "pseudo-Amiga" are the ones who'd also do c2p-stuff on 060/AGA if nothing else shows up. But I don't see that as a goal in itself. Chunky-buffer based texture mappers and tunnels can be done on so many other platforms already.

And finally, Britelite summed it up pretty well with
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If we wanted to support new hardware we wouldn't be coding for the Amiga ;)

I'm interested in seeing what I can do within the existing limitations of a couple of platforms that I know well, not what I can do on new hardware that happens to fit within the same plastic cover as those machines. :)
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new hardware that happens to fit within the same plastic cover as those machines

That gives me a *fantastic* idea! What if someone made a WarpOS/PowerUP-like accelerator with x86 instead of PPC, and combined it with WINE so one could run Windows executables natively on Amiga? Just imagine the chunky! :O
added on the 2016-02-06 16:59:33 by absence absence

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