vectors not facing one another.

category: code [glöplog]
Yeaaahh, we can start some scene drama!
Guys, don't you think that using Unreal Engine to perform a dot product is cheating?
added on the 2016-11-25 12:41:02 by Soundy Soundy
using any kind of inner products is cheating.
added on the 2016-11-25 12:54:24 by Preacher Preacher
Soundy: it's relativization of the issue,as using UE is cheating in absolute sense. It's not even about technical details,but about social issue of giving some "pimp" too much advantage. It's like David Hilbert would write a comercial inner-product library and you would be lazy enough to use it and pay him royalties/support his marketing strategy. So, there :)
added on the 2016-11-25 14:40:28 by tomkh tomkh
So Hilbert's 24th problem was actually how to make money. Why am I not surprised? ;)

I think the moral I take from this thread is https://stackoverflow.com/questions/ask :)
added on the 2016-11-25 15:03:27 by cxw cxw
Tomkh: Agreed!

Dot product using hand-made engine:
BB Image

Dot product using Unreal Engine:
BB Image
added on the 2016-11-25 15:44:45 by Soundy Soundy
Hmm the second screenshot looks definitely not better than some space scenes from recent 64k or even 8k, so what is it that you want to proof?;)
added on the 2016-11-25 16:35:05 by tomkh tomkh
You cant do dot products in that engine as its not defined for unreal numbers.
( •_•)>⌐■-■
added on the 2016-11-25 17:01:03 by LJ LJ
It can be defined for surreal I guess (Surreal number).
added on the 2016-11-25 17:31:39 by tomkh tomkh
Thomkh: Just doing a metaphor to illustrate that when you code by yourself, what you get is what you did. But when using Unreal, what you get is way beyond what you did.
It was just as joke as dot prod' is such a basic operation...
added on the 2016-11-26 13:16:25 by Soundy Soundy
Sound: oh no,and again people will judge that developers (in general) are high on autistic spectrum.
added on the 2016-11-26 13:29:41 by tomkh tomkh
I wish I would be getting high on autistic spectrum right now.
Soundy: I never mentioned before, but I actually do know Unity a lot, I worked professionally with it, for quite a time I sold source-code in the Unity Store (and made a good money with that), I also worked on a real MMO, on a real company where they chose Unity as their engine. The project had dozens of professionals involved and a few million dollars spent. I also worked a bit with Unreal, and I know enough about it to create whatever I need to.

Honestly, I have *nothing* against them and will happily use them in a commercial game or whatever where appropriate and quicker to reach the goal.

Now, even if I agreed that it would be too much to forbid their usage in demo compos... don't you think that this is too far to impose that people suddenly love their usage in the compos?

Lets give freedom to everyone then, please -- those who like their usage in the free compos, ok, but lets allow the opinion of others who don't like their usage in free compos as well.

This is not about them being untouchable or invincible. This is about the philosophical, or spiritual meaning of the demoscene. The problem is not that people against their usage is afraid of them, the problem is that maybe, just maybe, in free, purely artistic (including coding) competitions, maybe, just maybe they are not appropriate.

As an another example, I prefer javascript/webgl demos with self-made engines, instead of made with threejs. That is my personal opinion, I see more value in demos done this way, the "hard" way, if you prefer. I can clearly see more technical achievements in them.

Even if the guy gets a few snippets of code from here and there, *to me*, there is more value than simply using the commercially tuned shaders and many, many facilities offered by Unity/Unreal.

As said above, though, I am not against Unity/Unreal in any way, I just have my doubts about the beauty of their usage in free, purely artistic demo compos, born with coding as the central part.

But again, just to finish, I already agreed that forbidding is not the way to go. Lets at least hope that people start making good usage of them, because doing some shitty 1gb demos with a lot of built-in effects definitely don't impress me.

Oh, and the image you posted... it is ugly, and could be done most probably in 1kb. =)

added on the 2016-11-28 01:15:52 by imerso imerso
Anyway, at this point I don't know exactly why I am still answering about this, as I am not that much worried about the "scene". I just think that it sucks to use Unreal/Unity to compete, as they build huge amounts of bloatware in such context, tons of wasted megabytes that scream incompetence (not by them but by competitors), but this or that makes no difference in my life at all.

The "scene" is in fact a very small part of my life (you see that I only cared to release two times), and contrary to what some of you think, I am not "traumatized" (lol), as in the world outside the "scene" (which is way bigger if you don't know) I release a lot and have been finding much greater value (and money).

I am mostly finished with a new engine which would be the base of my third "scene" release, but you know what, I don't know if I will waste it here, giving my own ideas/techniques for free, just for some "scene" recognition.

The world wide market is much bigger than the "scene", and as we talk commercially, there is where the money is.
added on the 2016-11-28 05:32:39 by imerso imerso
Dear imerso:
- I also used professionally Unity, and I also prefer hand-made engines. I made WebGL demos, and coded my own engine as you say (check http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=67134 for example). I belong to that old game engine developers generation that had to create editor + runtime for each new console.
- My opinion about this whole thing is that there should be a category for pro engines, that's it. This has already been discussed in another thread.
- Now why did I post that in a thread dedicated to dotprod'? It was just a joke! I realize the Unity/UE topic is sooooo explosive that it triggers passions every-time someone evokes it. Won't do it again ;)
added on the 2016-11-28 09:00:46 by Soundy Soundy
spiritual meaning of the demoscene.

You mean, make stuff and occasionally get drunk with your friends?
added on the 2016-11-28 15:56:03 by Preacher Preacher
Preacher: could be, why not. But when we start adding commercial stuff in the equation, I can't see what is the point of the demoscene anymore. This is not about underground art then -- imho. So, considering that, publishing source-code to Unity and Unreal Stores will give much more valuable ($$$) return then.

That is just me, though. You are all free to disagree.

But even if I thumb down and scream around aggressively, be sure that I still honestly love every single one of you over here. Even the ones who currently hate me because of my polemic opinion.
added on the 2016-11-28 17:05:48 by imerso imerso
Really wish I could delete all this. I don't care that much.
added on the 2016-11-28 18:06:39 by imerso imerso
imerso! Te vi um dia desses no IRC :) Ando por lá.
added on the 2016-11-28 18:14:34 by Danguafer Danguafer
This is all good imerso, you did not write anything wrong.
added on the 2016-11-28 19:31:20 by Soundy Soundy
make stuff and occasionally get drunk with your friends?

Ok, so this kind of attitude triggers me heavily ;)
The fact most demosceners are retired by now, which usually means working+family, thus no time for real productions, doesn't mean the whole scene is like this.

Do you guys even remember when you were 20-something and you simply wanted to show the world "who's the boss" ? That's what to me is the demoscene spirit.

But yeah, it's understandable that old folks cannot compete anymore. They would rather just grab a beer and go nostalgic and maybe do 1-day joke prod/compo filler in Unity/UE. It's fine. But again, it's not all.

imerso: waiting for Etherea 2! And don't listen to those tired-of-life procrastinators.
added on the 2016-11-29 00:15:58 by tomkh tomkh
I think i will atleast make a tune called "Vectors not facing eachother", if not a full album. <3
added on the 2016-11-29 01:58:42 by wertstahl wertstahl
... one another. [grrrr missing edit function. grrrr hasty posting.]
added on the 2016-11-29 01:59:42 by wertstahl wertstahl
Do you guys even remember when you were 20-something and you simply wanted to show the world "who's the boss" ? That's what to me is the demoscene spirit.

BB Image
added on the 2016-11-29 02:30:16 by havoc havoc
wertstahl: this thread now wants you to go make a track about it. Please comply. ;)
added on the 2016-11-29 02:34:07 by cxw cxw
omg. the pressure!
added on the 2016-11-29 04:34:15 by wertstahl wertstahl