pouët.net

How should entries be ranked?

category: parties [glöplog]
Keep the 5 stars marks*

And yeah, what Gargaj said (didn't see the message before).
added on the 2019-08-22 15:31:07 by wullon wullon
What if ... groups were not allowed to vote for their own prod?
- just try to upvote your own prod on pouet and see what happens
- this is how it sometimes work during Game Jams. The group name is written on the ballot, so you can't just self-vote

tbh, I don't think demoparties should/could go this far, 'just trying to open some perspectives about how to fix/ease a social issue.
added on the 2019-08-22 15:38:21 by fra fra
"so you just can't self-vote...", sorry, damn french brain...
added on the 2019-08-22 15:39:22 by fra fra
What about displaying the current votes/prod rankings live on the intranet or even the bigscreen? Of course that would kind of encourage strategic voting but it would at least stop the "wtfs" during or after the prizegiving and also make manipulation (votewhoring, mass votekey grabbing) pretty obvious.

And yeah while it would take away the "aaaand the winner iiiis" movie award moment at the prizegiving it would in return add more focus to the voting during the actual event.
added on the 2019-08-22 15:53:35 by wysiwtf wysiwtf
all voting systems have some flaw or another i'm afraid.

if we're talking lowest amount of effort required i kind of like the idea of bringing in proxy voting to the table, where by default you assign your vote to the compo orgas (or to another scener you have some ammount of consideration for knowing their shit), and you can select a different proxy per compo. and if you feel strongly about a specific compo you can see what results your proxy is giving you by default and just alter them as you see fit.

would bring more pressure to the orgas in sorting the order of what is played though, but most compos already sort their entries by subjective order of preference to create a compo climax.

anyways, just an idea, probably no one will ever bother to try it out.
added on the 2019-08-22 15:55:00 by psenough psenough
wysiwtf has an interesting point, showing the livevote results (and number of voters per visitors ratio) while the compo is happening (up to 5 mins after) might be nice to call people to go vote.
added on the 2019-08-22 15:58:30 by psenough psenough
yeah, nice spoiler alert!
added on the 2019-08-22 15:59:36 by Maali Maali
Dunno perhaps that's nonsense.. But seems I implicitely assumed at voting, that prods with 0 stars just don't get counted. Whyever.. So that would be somehow a "I just don't know, let the others decide" option. Have no clue if that would make sense. I assume there are people which just "lost" some compos or entries at every party anyways.. dunno..
added on the 2019-08-22 16:01:18 by mad mad
What would be most probably the average, if I just think about that now :).. Sorry.. :)
added on the 2019-08-22 16:05:14 by mad mad
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wysiwtf has an interesting point, showing the livevote results (and number of voters per visitors ratio) while the compo is happening (up to 5 mins after) might be nice to call people to go vote.

If you've ever had the misfortune to sit through the voting stage of a livecoding round, you might have a feeling why that idea is a disaster.
added on the 2019-08-22 16:06:02 by Gargaj Gargaj
mad: if you can't decide give it 2 or 3 cos you have to save your 0 for crap :)
Ok will do so!! Thanx!
added on the 2019-08-22 16:13:56 by mad mad
easiest would be you can only choose the entry you liked best per compo. the end.
added on the 2019-08-22 16:16:34 by benJam benJam
I don't mean to rain on your parade, but maybe a different pov can be of help.

Why do you rank the releases anyway? Because some teenagers decided so 30 years ago to boost their self-esteem? It's a bit like having a non-demoscene-party where some people bring a cake. In the evening, everyone tries a slice of the cake and then it's ranked who made the best cake. The best 3 cakes get a prize. Others don't.

I'm not sure what's the recipe for happiness, but one recipe for unhappiness is comparing yourself to others. With your compos, you do this on a regular basis. I'm not surprised you're have alot of alcohol (and worse) flowing at parties.
If you must compare, compare yourself to who you were 1 week ago, 1 month ago - Did you learn something? Did you grow? Was there progress? If not - work on yourself, leave others out of this.
That is healthy, you're improving every day a little bit.
Don't compare to others, it's too easy to cherry pick someone who is better at this, better at that than you.

Maybe - with the ranking of work - you are encouraging negative, self-destructive behaviour? People doing Demos as a 2nd job after working fulltime, steering into inevitable burnout?

From my pov these are the really hard and interesting questions to be asked, not how to optimize the formula how to calculate a score.

Hope that helps, feel free to ignore ^^
added on the 2019-08-22 16:17:41 by r1g8 r1g8
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wysiwtf has an interesting point, showing the livevote results (and number of voters per visitors ratio) while the compo is happening (up to 5 mins after) might be nice to call people to go vote.

If you've ever had the misfortune to sit through the voting stage of a livecoding round, you might have a feeling why that idea is a disaster.


you mean because people have a tendency to vote (or clap) more for the underdog and that would make the results very "flat"?
added on the 2019-08-22 16:18:41 by wysiwtf wysiwtf
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-- if votekey not used -> implicitely contributes to compos with mode "reverse compo order"


wouldnt this basically be a "organizers vote" then? given that (at evoke) about 10% of the votekeys registered weren't used for any vote at all i'd think that would be a very strong bias towards whatever the compoteam thinks should be placed last. or am i misunderstanding you?
added on the 2019-08-22 16:19:07 by steam steam
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easiest would be you can only choose the entry you liked best per compo. the end.


And in compos where there's one dominating entry, all ranks except the first would be defined by namevoters and other trolls. Sorry, but no :)
added on the 2019-08-22 16:20:21 by KeyJ KeyJ
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easiest would be you can only choose the entry you liked best per compo. the end.


this will lead to trump/brexit-scenarios where people do not vote for the "obvious winner" but second place, because "others will definitely vote for the obvious winner, i am sure".
added on the 2019-08-22 16:25:21 by steam steam
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easiest would be you can only choose the entry you liked best per compo. the end.


And in compos where there's one dominating entry, all ranks except the first would be defined by namevoters and other trolls. Sorry, but no :)


No, just don't have a ranking per compo then. Have a winner in every compo. period.
"the winner takes it all..." *sing* plus: prizegiving will be way shorter.
added on the 2019-08-22 16:30:39 by benJam benJam
I will often feel unable to vote for an entry - say if I didn’t hear / see it. So I don’t - under the assumption that this was the same as a neutral vote.

Sucks if it aint so!
added on the 2019-08-22 16:33:14 by farfar farfar
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wysiwtf has an interesting point, showing the livevote results (and number of voters per visitors ratio) while the compo is happening (up to 5 mins after) might be nice to call people to go vote.

If you've ever had the misfortune to sit through the voting stage of a livecoding round, you might have a feeling why that idea is a disaster.


care to elaborate your point to something one can actually discuss?
added on the 2019-08-22 16:36:55 by psenough psenough
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I'm not sure what's the recipe for happiness, but one recipe for unhappiness is comparing yourself to others. With your compos, you do this on a regular basis. I'm not surprised you're have alot of alcohol (and worse) flowing at parties.


Except (at least in my experience) the competition is *friendly* and not destructive. Not everyone wants to win either, because otherwise you wouldn't see any experimental stuff, and it'd be a much larger burden on newcomers (speaking as one myself) and we'd have even fewer of them than now.

And I also highly doubt people drink alcohol to try to "overcome" the negative emotions caused by the competition, but rather to get in the mood to party and hang out with friends. (Also, I abstain from it anyway.)

The thing I've noticed with these competitions is that they actually *encourage* people to do better and better, without feeling too demotivated. Or at least in my case.

(Of course, take it with a grain of salt as well.)

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1/ In the 5 stars marks, but drop the implicit 0/5 mark when one don't vote // 1/5 is the default mark for all prods.
(Cf my previous message)
As a visitor, it changes basically nothing (you "boost" the sum of prods you chose to vote on ; and if you don't vote for a prod fine). And it's more clear on how what you do or don't will affect the results.

2/ Switch to explicit ranking, but only to the top 5
(what Maali said)
As a visitor, it's very clear about what you are doing / how your voting affect the results.
If you don't remember enough prods to fill a top 5 => abstention the fuck, you were probably to inattentive/drunk during the compo ;).
If you have lore than 5 prods in mind => it forces you to make choices


The problem there is that you now have to pick your top 5, and also unify these scores in some way or another.

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all voting systems have some flaw or another i'm afraid.


Arrow's theorem :)

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if we're talking lowest amount of effort required i kind of like the idea of bringing in proxy voting to the table, where by default you assign your vote to the compo orgas (or to another scener you have some ammount of consideration for knowing their shit), and you can select a different proxy per compo. and if you feel strongly about a specific compo you can see what results your proxy is giving you by default and just alter them as you see fit.


That's a bit interesting, but I'm not sure how to chose someone as proxy will work, besides for the orgas?

Also giving the orgas a say in the matter feels kinda unfair?

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easiest would be you can only choose the entry you liked best per compo. the end.


And in compos where there's one dominating entry, all ranks except the first would be defined by namevoters and other trolls. Sorry, but no :)


Afaik Assembly had a top-n selection thing, and people complained because that made the votes bias really hard towards the best prods. It was changed this year iirc. I might be wrong, as I haven't ever been there.
added on the 2019-08-22 16:37:46 by porocyon porocyon
To be clear: I'm very well aware of situations where competitions are a cause of negative emotions, but it's not at all like this in the demoscene, in my experience. Otherwise the party atmosphere would also be quite a bit different.
added on the 2019-08-22 16:44:09 by porocyon porocyon
FWIW, the party that sparked this whole conversation, Evoke, used to have top-3 voting as well, until the early 2010s (don't remember when exactly it was replaced with what we have now). Seems like you can't please everyone no matter which way you turn it. ;)
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wysiwtf has an interesting point, showing the livevote results (and number of voters per visitors ratio) while the compo is happening (up to 5 mins after) might be nice to call people to go vote.

If you've ever had the misfortune to sit through the voting stage of a livecoding round, you might have a feeling why that idea is a disaster.


care to elaborate your point to something one can actually discuss?

Sigh. Ever wondered why most elections don't announce exit polls until full poll closure? Results influence results.
added on the 2019-08-22 16:51:20 by Gargaj Gargaj

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