To Unity or Not to Unity

category: general [glöplog]
added on the 2020-04-29 00:40:10 by arabek arabek
on that side note: who are we even to judge that. demos are an art form and as such should (should they really(?), i'm not even sure about that) only be judged in terms of how the look/feel/sound overall, not what tools have been used to create it.

on that note: @psenough - compos are a part of demoscene. they give the necessary edge of competitiveness most of us treat as fun. i disagree lobotomizing demoparties of the competetive part would do much good.
added on the 2020-04-29 00:46:37 by arabek arabek
Just going to leave this here to see what happens:

added on the 2020-05-13 18:52:12 by uncle-x uncle-x
yeah that real-time ultrapoly optimization sounds really really cool and perhaps a nice new breakthrough innovation in game engines. also, finally I can do 300k poly coca cola cans again and no coder can complain that's too much! :P
holy shit that looks quite awesome
added on the 2020-05-13 19:28:00 by wysiwtf wysiwtf
incr-edi-ble! Damn this new tech looks great. So many questions. How?
added on the 2020-05-13 22:33:16 by neoneye neoneye
Until someone comes and arrogantly says this is simple on modern hardware I'm going to say that is black magic! Dynamic scenes with global illumination and virtually billions of polys as input.

Your move färjanmaker!
added on the 2020-05-14 06:46:44 by rloaderro rloaderro
BB Image
added on the 2020-05-14 13:15:39 by jco jco
incr-edi-ble! Damn this new tech looks great. So many questions. How?

Years of R&D by very skilled people!
added on the 2020-05-14 13:49:05 by okkie okkie
incr-edi-ble! Damn this new tech looks great. So many questions. How?

Years of R&D by very skilled people!

Nah, it's basically only the Titanics decruncher Ryg ripped off in the PS5. The rest is just stuff modern GPUs (which, as we all know, just spring into existence) do anyway.

(am I doing this right)
added on the 2020-05-14 14:15:49 by kb_ kb_
Nah, it's basically only the Titanics decruncher Ryg ripped off in the PS5. The rest is just stuff modern GPUs (which, as we all know, just spring into existence) do anyway.
added on the 2020-05-14 14:20:16 by ferris ferris
Taking a second look the dynamic global illumination could be a very clever reuse of sprites every scanline made possible by the copper
added on the 2020-05-14 15:09:08 by rloaderro rloaderro
It’s amazing what you can do with color cycling when you have 16.7 million colors in the palette
added on the 2020-05-14 15:10:49 by rloaderro rloaderro
but now that you have a tool that can import 40 billion polygon objects in a demo and still run it at 30fps, not only coders can sit back and be lazy, also artists can sit back and be lazy. all you need is a phone to make a demo... zero effort, just some pictures of pretty things from your phone into a free photogrammetry app, drag 'n drop that data into the tool and then 'build' for an .exe and your Revision demo compo winner is done. At least the visual department! Bah! time to make Gameboy demos!
not only coders can sit back and be lazy, also artists can sit back and be lazy

shit, so i wasted my time learning programming for no good reason ;(
added on the 2020-05-14 16:22:29 by havoc havoc
That's the end of Unlimited Detail!
added on the 2020-05-14 16:52:06 by Kabuto Kabuto
Lacking glenz vectors, but apart from that, these UE guys make really really great demos.
added on the 2020-05-14 17:09:43 by Soundy Soundy
havoc: you should try to learn music! surely no AI can ever make music based on 5 seconds example material!!!!!!
Just boilerplate code!
added on the 2020-05-14 17:35:14 by imerso imerso
The DOS PCs made monster sprites. Lot's of sprites. They Were Monsters. Monster DOS PCs. But nowadays..
added on the 2020-05-14 23:03:51 by Optimonk Optimonk
Nah, it's basically only the Titanics decruncher Ryg ripped off in the PS5.

KRAKEN DECRUNCHES WHILE LOADING (and actually, yes, it does)
added on the 2020-05-15 10:41:30 by Sesse Sesse
An interesting analysis on how they do it:
Basically, Nanite is miceopolygons/Reyes, a technique from 1987 that they all use for non-realtime rendering.
And Lumen is what you could guess: bounces through a low res voxelized version of the same world. But they add a finer raymarshed approximation(not sure why, maybe the character??) + SSGI.

There's still questions it raises, like they mention 8k textures. But why the need of textures if the poly is the size of your pixel? Color and stuff should be baked I the vertex at that point. Unless the geometry is generated from the texture, but then it's a standard displacement map?
And if it's really subpixel polys, why are they rendering polys? You just need the color at that point so voxels or point cloud could do the same.
added on the 2020-05-16 17:13:09 by BarZoule BarZoule
I know I am coming to the discussion a tad late but I can't stand by not saying anything after the 10 pages of banter.

First, I been a part of the demoscene (namely in the C64 scene) for awhile. I know of a number of 'sceners'.

Things I need to point out pointedly.

- There is the demoscene (for each of a large number of computing platforms). There is the demoparty competitions. These are two distinctive things although there is a degree of correlation between the party competitions and the scene but the scene isn't all about the parties and the competitions. We all can agree on that from examples spanning the past FOUR DECADES !!!!

- Each "scener" may have their own personal reasons and driving force to why they do this. For some, they are more driven by the competition and the "trophy" (not always a literal trophy but even the symbolic trophy.... such as the "fame"). For others, it is about expressing themselves in this unique form distinct from producing video games or software applications, utilities, etc.

- A demo is a "product" of its own kind distinct from a video game. Yes, you *could* use a video game engine that is as powerful as Unity and UE4 to produce a demo. It's just a means to an end.

- For competition purposes, it depends on the competition criteria. If you are making a 4K demo, it is almost certain you wouldn't want to use such game engines as Unity or UE4. On a megademo, where there really isn't a physical size limit other than practicality... you can probably use whatever.

- The competition culture of demoparty competitions is NOT the whole nature of the demoscene which is much broader.

- As I said earlier and will reiterate in different words, for some, a demo is an expression of art in this unique form of digital medium. We are expressing ourself in what is not merely static image.

- Demos need not be "real-time" but they need to be not static images or merely a video clip. Although, you can use a video clip to present the demo but the demo itself must be driven by some code. We know whatever is produced by Unity and UE4 is likely to be considered to be an executable program and not just a video file played in a video player.

- I would view demos made in Unity/UE4/etc. in their own distinct category of demos (if we are talking about demos in the "demoscene" sense verses a demo-version of a video game. I would be evaluating the demo more in its collective artistic expression.... visually, aurally, and perhaps in how you creatively code things.

Some demosceners are interested in challenging themselves and expressing themselves. I'm for it. I would welcome people to come up with creative 'scener' demos using Unity/UE4/etc. and be expressive as they can. While those demos probably can't be used to compete in certain categories of demo competitions, which would make sense for obvious reasons.

For whatever, I would encourage the art and expression of the demo. If you can genuinely do it in Unity or UE4.... or whatever.... go for it. Use the precedents as some guide of what is a "demo" from the demoscene sense from say something that is merely a video game or whatever. There is plenty of latitude for expression here. I've seen it in the C64, Amiga, and PC world and abroad over the past decades.

There will always be different opinions but since there isn't an absolute rule, you can take a culmination of opinions and see the diversity of the demo scene. You can probably fine a means to fit into the spectrum of those diverse opinions.

Go for it! Enjoy and don't get too caught up in caring too much about any singular opinion.
added on the 2021-03-13 23:32:08 by Wildstar Wildstar
Some people may argue that you have to have limits. All computers have finite resources like a finite amount of RAM, hard drive capacity, etc. There are limits.

Those weren't the concerns of Amiga demo sceners in the early Amiga days as those systems were cutting age in 1985 like todays top-end gaming computers. So, yeah, they were doing what they can in exploring what they can do with that computer with the tools they had. Over time, further stretching the limits of what they can do but that was what experienced sceners began doing to challenge themselves further and further with the limits of say a stock Amiga 500 in the 1990s. Similar ideas were applied in the Commodore 64 scene because a stock model is likely to get the widest audience.... largest common denominator versus someone that might have a rare piece of equipment.

You decide, I'm going to challenge myself to what I can do with an standard nvidia 960 video card spec or something. You can do that. You could also challenge yourself to what you can do with a Titan RTX. You'll limit your audience potential but you could.

The demoscene and the making of 'demos' is about expression in this medium we call 'demos'. What drives you is up to each of us for our own selves, first and foremost.

Competitions is where we have most of the rules for entries into particular categories which is entirely understandable but for making a demo as an expression.... there isn't so many rules and that is what gives us such diversity to express.
added on the 2021-03-13 23:57:36 by Wildstar Wildstar
you should write essays, not posts