Demoscene Ethics

category: general [glöplog]
Ok, so we're at "the document is perfect, you're the problem for critisizing it" again.
added on the 2021-01-05 09:12:06 by v3nom v3nom
metoikos: The issues raised aren't as partisan as you think and reading this thread I think the majority of people are aligned with its intent, but the execution is a bit clumsy. Does that mean we're discarding the intent? No. I think the majority of us here want it to be as effective as possible. Furthermore, if you want to instill change but refuse to have a conversation, well, then it becomes a question of whether you are willing to be pragmatic or not.

This isn't Twitter, and there is a lot more nuance to this. I've heard some of the stories and they've been frankly horrible. I've spoken to sceners, non-sceners, scener partners, women, ethnic minorities and gender non-conforming people and tried to get a broad take on what the best move forward is.

Since we've been discussing this you are getting more people signing up and that's a good thing, but walking away from uncomfortable conversations doesn't help. If you read through the whole thread, the sentiment more cooperative than I think you give it credit for.
added on the 2021-01-05 09:44:38 by rc00 rc00
I'd like to suggest something:

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added on the 2021-01-05 11:04:22 by dubmood dubmood
Many different opinions and views are important for such a project.
Even the particularly critical ones that you can rub yourself against.

The nice thing about our culture of conversation, the primarily non-verbal, is that it is different than in real life:
Even the silent voices are heard or read.

which is why I am going to step away from this thread after this

It would be very sad if you stop participating in this discussion.
Because without realizing it, everyone participating in this thread is already an important part of the project.

Whether there is a manifest, a website, a label, a button on the shirt - it doesn't matter.
Apparently the will exists to raise awareness that we infact have ppl in scene who need to be a bit more protected than others.

I can only speak for myself and iam old enough, not to be ashamed of my failures, my weaknesses and my behaviours in the past.
Fuck, iam a fully compensated, self reflected spectrum being and i´ve been through a lot of shit.
I was bullied and i bullied. I hated elitism - i used elitism.

Im now in my 33rd year of the scene.
When i started there was no demoscene.
We were a bunch of criminals who had the privilege of using computers.
We grew up in a world influenced by the American gangster lifestyle, calling cards, blueboxing, BBS, software piracy.
Elitism WAS a thing. it kept us going. We all wanted to be respected, to be one.
Getting respect is nothing other than a substitute for love imho.
And in real life society social status is apparently very important to this day.
And lets face it, most of us - even i - dont feel like grown ups do we?
Else we wouldnt act like teenagers...which is good! Keeps our minds fresh and young.

But...demoscene can and is better than real life society.
But we shouldn't fool ourselves:
The scene consists of people who would never have anything to do with each other in normal life
- if the connecting aspect wouldn't be the demoscene.

And so we should and can deal with the difficulties that result from it.
Who else, if not us scener, could do that?
Can you name a scene that consists of so many people from different cultures and subcultures that is more tolerant than this?

In the end, every perspective is important, even those who say, "It doesn't matter. If you're shit, get better."
There's nothing wrong with that, the way of saying this could be improved, but hey ...

This project shouldn't remain anonymous.
There are a lot of sceners who want to get involved and offer to be an interfaces for people who need to talk.
Nobody should feel threatened by the fact that a growing number of people are trying to bring a little peace and calmness to the scene.
And on the other hand, nobody should feel threatened if, while their entry is running - someone shouts "SHIT".

Both is important to me.
Both, the rabble ;-) and the protection of people who need it.
added on the 2021-01-05 11:15:10 by _docd _docd
Define "elitism", please.
added on the 2021-01-05 11:18:40 by Gargaj Gargaj
Gargaj: "Im better than you because..."

- im in group xy
- im in scene since
- you´re a noob
- i made this demo
- you never made a demo
- im fucking famous
- im just ruder than you
- i know these guys
- im organizer
- i know an organizer
- iam an organizer
- iam not an organizer
- i do drugs
- i dont do drugs
- iam vegan
- iam not
- iam christian
- iam muslim
- iam jew
- iam church of satan
- iam church of the flying spaghetti monster
- iam different

- i think i just deserve being better than you because of anything shit i believe that makes me better than you
added on the 2021-01-05 11:49:34 by _docd _docd
drop elitism
install kindergarten safe space
happy now?
added on the 2021-01-05 11:58:16 by T$ T$
T$ now you tell me what the difference is between a kindergarten and the demoscene...i mean, without telling that we the have much cooler toys.
added on the 2021-01-05 12:01:19 by _docd _docd
- I know the difference between ´ and '
added on the 2021-01-05 12:14:49 by El Topo El Topo
i tried, but i fail to be quiet. only a few will appreciate. most will get it wrong. but i feel i must comment. my thoughts resonate in this. i followed this entire discussion with very heavy heart. i am not sure if my departure will be missed. i want to not care. go ahead, next generation, without me. goodbye.
added on the 2021-01-05 12:46:01 by wertstahl wertstahl
I mostly second rc55, docd and kb.

My two cents are:

I work in a huge company group and therefore have shitloads of trainings and stuff concerning all the harassment and corporate behaviour stuff, but I definitely have absolutely no use for such a CoC (feels like one) for the demoscene.


Because it doesn't make people more open or more tolerant. It just makes people taking care all the time "how and what to say" and quite often this kills new ideas, kills different views and kills creativity, because especially the deep nerds don't want to think about such stuff too long, so they're just...silent.

When I or talk/act bullshit I get the necessary negative feedback aswell as I provide the feedback if someone else does. If my prod sucks it gets a thumb down and the comment it deserves. I always liked this honest way without the people constantly thinking if "this or that is ok". They're just like they are. Like the type of honest friends I prefer to gather around me.

And I truely had several occasions in the beginning where I got a lot of negative feedback for releases. Who cares dafuq? Either it was my fault (realized that lateron) and I learned through it or I helped others to learn. And there are quite some people with all kind of different characters that just don't fit my taste. Simple. I avoid them.

I guess with this kind of try to push the demoscene in a direction, we would have never seen demos like "Winnerdemo" and groups like "Metalvotze" and even if I didn't like all of their style, I liked the variety they brought in.

Like docd says:
Raising awareness is something everyone can do and in my experience already does, especially the demoparty organizers, and the rest for me is just:

Normal demoscene life. Not easy all the time. Not compliant to ordinary life all the time.

But truely rewarding!
added on the 2021-01-05 12:52:30 by Raven^NCE Raven^NCE
Also 'Elitism':
'Flash made 90.. Camelot made 128.. Beyond Force made 370.. So I made 444 dots sphere with 2 colors updated each frame.'

And there's way more in many many demos, this particular one is from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90DeapSU9r8 - It's full of 'elitism'.

But it's of a kind I would define as fun and competitive, challenging others to do better. This is something we should cherish. And definitely not label as toxic.
added on the 2021-01-05 12:52:59 by Sander Sander
i think the topic a double edged sword. sad that the saying "threat others like you want to be treated" is not enough nowadays and everything has to be discussed to death and most of all it has to be political correct. also here among mostly 35+ old folks. really? if someone thinks he/she is e.g. too elite (to chose a more or less neutral example) shoving it into everyones face there naturally will be consequences. like here sometimes at pouet in the comment sections. or even some fuckings in a demo. the scene is small so a real fuckup will be a topic. a good/fair behaviour is always the way to go. but to me discussions like this feel like a try to ban everything that is out of line (generally speaking; i have a brain, you have one). so "this sucks" is not a matter of taste but an opening for writing an analysis why it sucks + an apology for not liking a crappy demo? communication is more than words on the internet. i guess we can all agree that the scene is no place for sexism, racism and such. on the other hand you can't ban thoughts. if someone thinks the three legged rulers of the world rule indeed without shoving it into everyones face then what?

i thought about not writing here. i get the effort and thought behind it. sure some are more self reflective than others but the whole project feels like holding hands while most things are self explaining (Resisting elitism and healing insecurity). nobody wants a crappy environment escpecially in a field of choice (you can chose to be part of the demoscene but not where you were born kind of choice). i think some things above sound a bit agressive but that's okay. i am just torn apart between not caring and trying to explain why i am not a fan of it. but not being a fan does not mean i am against it (for some political correct statement to keep the back door to safe space open). that's all.
docd: lack of b00ze ?
Sander: not to forget 28537 glenz polys!
And Raven for president.
added on the 2021-01-05 13:30:11 by T$ T$
I guess with this kind of try to push the demoscene in a direction, we would have never seen demos like "Winnerdemo" and groups like "Metalvotze"

so basically the scene would cease to exist. RIP
added on the 2021-01-05 14:07:13 by groepaz groepaz
We have a winner!
added on the 2021-01-05 14:17:12 by bifat bifat
iirc Metalvotze was founded on an anarcho left-wing (read: punk) spirit to counter and make fun of elitism and hirarchies in the scene, so even if the topic has shifted more towards inclusion and the correct use of language i doubt that it will make such groups and sceners disappear but instead spawn more of them (example: spacepigs).
in my eyes thats not a bad thing but rather some sort of "auto correction" in the community.
added on the 2021-01-05 16:10:33 by wysiwtf wysiwtf
while most things are self explaining (Resisting elitism and healing insecurity)

If this thread exists, then, probably, they're not.
added on the 2021-01-05 16:22:05 by 100bit 100bit
seems so. the world is full of evil elite people.
I originally did't want to write on pouet. I want to give some critiques regarding "ethics" in here. My problem with that is, that discussion circle was small. I think it would be an idea to discuss how we want to act as community over a longer timespan and with some discussion panels with educated guests, probably from human sciences. There are many problems in society, such as racism, antisemitism and classism to name a few. I think there is not much worth in it just assigning a paper, or in this case a formular. It is easy to assign something but a different thing to act like the assigned document. I would propose to have over 1 or 2 years some dedicated discussion panels on major parties about that topics and then have, hopefully something we all agree. If the timespan is smaller, it would be even better. I think this would not diverge too far, what party organizers do already. Unfortunately right now in-person-parties are difficult. In the end it is a discussion process, to build awareness. I think technology is not something appart from rest of society. Besides this, I am not a fan of making a polit group out of demoscene.

This is indeed a process. I think it would be actually a really good idea to have this kind of discussions at parties as a next step.

I do agree with you kb about lot of things. I think we need to find a reasonable way for getting the critique in and refine the text so that it isn't patronizing.

I also understand that people are frustrated that they weren't part of the initial discussion that led to this text. But here is the thing. This isn't a text from the party organizers point of view nor an average party goers point of view. This is a text by group of people who come from the minority background, who face discrimination not in the scene only but in society too. Yes, we had also allies involved. But the thing is, to get this project going we didn't include everyone in open discussion as we wanted to be heard for once. However, now it is the time for the open discussion, now it is really a time for critique to the text. And you are making your self heard. And I promise that the feedback is taken into account. However, I also ask you to kindly look behind the formatting of the text and see where it is coming from. This isn't a call out, this is a call in.
added on the 2021-01-05 17:22:24 by rimina rimina
rimina: Excellent. How do we get involved?
added on the 2021-01-05 17:27:46 by rc00 rc00
rimina: how can people contribute their critics and suggestions to the project? just dm you and/or metoikos and/or uctumi?

will there be some sort of forum for discussing the points and suggesting changes?

definitely a public round table about this topic would be nice to have imho. not sure the real target audience would tune in if it wasn't part of a larger event though. either way, if you think i can help in any of that i'd be up for it.
added on the 2021-01-05 17:36:53 by psenough psenough
I think we need to find a reasonable way for getting the critique in and refine the text so that it isn't patronizing.

My tips.

A) Never use the words "you" or "they". Use "I" and "we" instead. This alone can remove all patronizing.
B) Never use the word "if". Avoid all hypotheses.
C) Write it in verse or as an aphorism collection. Preferably with rhythm so that we can sing it.
D) Make the Manifesto 2.0 shorter. Remove 3/4 of the words used in the 1.0 version.
E) Make a demo about it and not just a web.
added on the 2021-01-05 17:39:03 by ham ham
rimina: Excellent. How do we get involved?

I think you are already involved as you are discussing things here. You can also sign the project, if you think it is good thing (not phrasing but the overall message).

Also in which level do.ypu want to participate? If you want to discuss with us, you can e.g. dm me. If you want a public discussion I think this thread is very good.
added on the 2021-01-05 17:46:33 by rimina rimina
rimina: how can people contribute their critics and suggestions to the project? just dm you and/or metoikos and/or uctumi?

will there be some sort of forum for discussing the points and suggesting changes?

definitely a public round table about this topic would be nice to have imho. not sure the real target audience would tune in if it wasn't part of a larger event though. either way, if you think i can help in any of that i'd be up for it.

One way is to dm. For public discussion I think this thread is good right now. I have to admit that we didn't think the feedback loop through. So bare with us as we figure out things with you guys as we go. <3
added on the 2021-01-05 17:52:31 by rimina rimina