Demoscene Ethics

category: general [glöplog]
@rimina: I've dropped you a DM in Discord and will follow this trhead also.
added on the 2021-01-05 17:54:25 by rc55 rc55
added on the 2021-01-05 17:54:32 by rc55 rc55
*threat ?

@ham: E) sounds good :)
added on the 2021-01-05 21:00:17 by T$ T$
added on the 2021-01-05 21:12:58 by _docd^hjb _docd^hjb
added on the 2021-01-05 21:39:12 by T$ T$
iirc Metalvotze was founded on an anarcho left-wing (read: punk) spirit to counter and make fun of elitism and hirarchies in the scene
Metalvotze waren also quasi "Die Kassierer" der Demoszene?
added on the 2021-01-05 22:10:49 by Sir Sir
Meinten Sie: Infoteam?
added on the 2021-01-05 23:20:55 by groepaz groepaz
- That puking/shitting trope is completely out of place. I know it's an often used cliché, and not fully without reason, but let me go out on a limb here: Even in that regard most parts of the demoscene are _better_ than "normal people".

I think the point of such a document is also to state that kind of things clearly. The scene is a better place than elsewhere? The people aregenerally nicer? Great! We can then clearly say that and set our standards. From the point of view of someone considering attending their first demoparty, they can then read this and know what to expect.

In other words, this may be not so much about changing the rules, but rather about making them more well-known and clear.

And I think there will not be much input from that point of view here, since this forum is mostly frequented by people who are already involved in the scene in some way, and already know how things goes. But it may be worth re-stating things that seem obvious for us.
But it may be worth re-stating things that seem obvious for us.
added on the 2021-01-05 23:49:55 by Sir Sir
I'm personally kind of surprised that elitism is a _topic_ in 2020 discussed as if this is a current issue. I never had so much elitism free and competition free, friendship focused demoscene times as in the last years to be honest.

I remember elitism back in the days described in various ways to define the scene rank ladder.

In the average age we represent today and the goals in life that we have, in most of the cases defined outside the scene, I consider this subculture as just another computer club full of retarded friends with a style, not egalitarian fraternity of any kind.

Of course there are some levels of hidden insight... but to call all that an elitism and an ethical problem of 2020... nay!

If there is one, then some have individually a communication problem rather than a it's a community level problem.

Call it a subjective opinion though.

I rather find that, historically, in the top elitism times we had had back in the days, we were less fragile to direct feedback and less bound to what defines us by today's politically correct standards.

Remember, there were some direct fuck messages in the top notch demos we dare to rewatch occasionally.. are we analysing ethics of those?

if all that bullshit was kept true it means that indirect flame and intrigue is more OK and direct feedback is elitism. And we're still covered by nick names... just in case.

Back in the days we used we, us to define community not to patronize...

Back in the days we used "if" to test and validate theories and either get them confirmed or debunked. Today it seems to be another way to patronize and manipulate as I read...

Back in the days we just talked to get together, most often very directly. Today, what? We need manifestos to define ourselves? Seriously? How mentally poor you need to be to need a manifesto to define yourself, I ask?! Are we punk rockers or something?

I mean, I don't know.. maybe I become older and grumpier... but I miss the times when I could call somebody an idiot and that was a waking call that maybe something is wrong in the conversation rather than somebody cries being offended and shuts the call...

Call me old fashioned :>

added on the 2021-01-06 00:19:29 by hollowone hollowone
But it may be worth re-stating things that seem obvious for us.

FICKÖÖÖÖN! Wer hat dicke Eier?
added on the 2021-01-06 02:34:28 by T$ T$
Clearly we reached the peak of the discussion
added on the 2021-01-06 03:07:23 by groepaz groepaz
Clearly we reached the peak of the discussion

not yet, this thread is still lacking pony pictures by princess knoeki!!
added on the 2021-01-06 09:42:46 by spike spike
People said 10 pages, where will this chatter lead?
added on the 2021-01-06 09:49:27 by g0blinish g0blinish
Maybe another 10, but it's good that people are talking about it.
added on the 2021-01-06 10:22:27 by rc55 rc55
not yet, this thread is still lacking pony pictures by princess knoeki!!

I lack in sarcasm and irony.
If: Would you help me here?
added on the 2021-01-06 10:52:52 by _docd^hjb _docd^hjb
one of the major issues with the site, in my opinion, is that it's stating (even attempting to impose) a solution to a problem that hasn't been defined properly, that many won't recognise personally or even know exists in the scene - as it generally occurs in private personal interactions. unfortunately by not creating empathy it could actually make things worse - by alienating some who don't already feel it.

i believe it would have been useful if the starting point had been to properly detail some of the negative experiences that the site wants to address. that could be putting a lot on those people on the receiving end of those things, and would take bravery on their part, but it allows more people in the community to understand, empathise and want things to be different. that's where real change comes from.

about elitism and painful statements.. i remember once at breakpoint a quite young scener who will remain nameless i had never met came up to me drunk and said (something along the lines of) "you think you're so elite. i hate your demos". i got over it. :D (we became friends later.)

***also i dont know if i personally could sign up to a document with such a high incidence of the word "folks"
added on the 2021-01-06 10:54:37 by smash smash
I can't unsee it now, thanks :P

BB Image
I'm personally kind of surprised that elitism is a _topic_ in 2020 discussed as if this is a current issue. I never had so much elitism free and competition free, friendship focused demoscene times as in the last years to be honest.

added on the 2021-01-06 13:53:45 by gloom gloom
"you think you're so elite. i hate your demos". i got over it.

Smash: As mentioned here before, i know you as very supportive, newbie welcoming and far from acting a nose up scener. So...be over it.
added on the 2021-01-06 14:01:45 by _docd^hjb _docd^hjb
if i just look back in my personal history how the scene and demoparties were evolving from the late 90s to how it is today, i'd say the scene already changed a lot.

what probably helped with that is that the average demoscener (white male) is now way older, has a real life, real job, real problems and real families.
in other words: has grown up (for the most part)

still, for me personally, one big part of the appeal of demoparties/demoscene was always exactly that there was no formal rules about it, and that this particular ecosystem evolved by itself and regulated itself.
sort of a breakout time/space from everydays behavorial constraints and political correctness, while at the same time, for some funny reason, it always felt more peaceful, tolerating and respectful than the outside world with all its rules.

with that said i understand and fully agree with the intent of the ethics project, i just dont see a point in signing it, as this is mostly common sense as of today (see corporate ethics, laws, ...).
therefore only people who already agree with it will sign it anyway.

but the actual people or specific problems you seem to want to address here, unfortunately you will still have to confront yourself and directly when something bothers/offends you (for the simple reason that everybody is bothered/offended by something slightly different).
and that's also part of growing up and managing life and building a character.
everybody, even the most elite or arrogant person, has faced that multiple times in life.

but thats the opinion of an white, straight, generation y guy, so what do i know ;)
added on the 2021-01-06 15:05:43 by gopher gopher
This is a different project, it's about being an ally but I think understanding what being an ally means helps you to understand the origins of this ethics project better. In my point of view you can view this ethics project also as call for allies. So what does it mean to be an ally? I think this page has it covered quite well.
added on the 2021-01-06 21:50:18 by rimina rimina
I think that is a good project and I would join in.
added on the 2021-01-07 00:56:32 by vl4d vl4d
If we're talking about written communication only, of course then only the words matter, because it's all that's there.

In former written only discussions I sometimes tried to add "Don't pronounce too much (overemphasize) when you read" if I had the feeling other people replied in a way that was totally out of myselves or someones meaning. (did it help? not realy) You also find this, when talking to someone and his/her/its brain works/interprets/filters different, also if you hit a secret wounded point or someone tries to find some vulnerables without participating the discussion itself. I am naive/brave enough to believe that the most of us are living and thinking more the same way than different. This not automaticly leads to fresh demos but propably spending years/decades with varoius plattforms whyle trying to, is caused by or leads to similar thinking because the mainstream is not the way we do live and think but with that background we know it better than the mainstream itself. Also I think everyone needs sometimes to requit (meditate about), how to say this now, missmatching selfmirroring and projektion onto others. Other try: don't think that everyone you did not met in person is a brand new Barby or Ken with superpower or that you will forever be young beautiful and elite. Life will strike you down. That's the way it goes for all lifeforms. Youngsters laugh but in the end you will go the same way. Maybe that's why we must accept things/ppl even if we don't understand. There is a lot of communication that can't be told and there is no reason to do so. It's telepaticly? A healthy community has unwritten rulez that work best if everyone sees the win win situation with it without steady discussions. funfact: I did not read the "CoC" but telepaticly I know there the unwritten rulez are in a written form and written rules are not unwritten, but should be. 100 readers will read text in 100 differets ways because we will emphesize (read the text with our own little big voice) if we want to or not. That's why a healthy practiced empathy is a must have for humans. If you have it and uses it against others you are a "insert preferred bad language".
When we was kids, our state gave us such little books "Pionierausweis" (google it or not) and I signed it with XXX instead of my name. A reason to throw me out of everything in this country. I never was good with authority and uniforms or uniformed thinking. And just for the record. I'm not the idol you are looking for.
I could go on with explaining my lifes background, why I'm here and why I was not there (for releasing, partying, voting, find the others and so on) but, no.
After reading all pages very carefully I loved a lot (same blood) but also I've had a stomachache and most I felt down if someone tried to bring others or him/herself to the exit. funny comment: you won't escape anyway! But in fact this colours my feelings and bad feelings I don't need in dreams or demos.
No hint, I'm not a native English person. It even stresses my(old)self tryig to express something right in my own language. So sry. Be patient. No need to make an elite demo about it. (realy)
added on the 2021-01-09 11:15:44 by aqu aqu
I tend to believe that the BSOD look of that website isn't providing a sufficiently calming environment for readers to dive into such a sensible topic.
added on the 2021-01-28 06:21:53 by Y0Gi Y0Gi