pouët.net

Demoscene Ethics

category: general [glöplog]
It is hard to change and the environnement as well as the root can make it easier/harder in my opinion. Unfortunately I am someone that need help in this area and the question "I’m curious. What was your intention when you said that?" is really good. I wish someone ask me when I'm wrong. I can read books about Alice Miller, Nonviolent Communication, and other things but I have a hard time to get rid of my curses '^^
added on the 2021-01-01 12:45:48 by Romain337 Romain337
I'm not saying there's no problem. I'm saying that we shouldn't be patronizing people when trying to deal with the problem. Please. Am I'm allowed to participate in this discussion, or am I disqualified because I'm a white man?
added on the 2021-01-01 12:48:39 by v3nom v3nom
If this is the case then I am sorry that I offended you.
added on the 2021-01-01 12:54:18 by v3nom v3nom
I am very sorry that, regardless of my true intentions, I am going to offend you and, at the same time, I forgive you for your future offenses that you will inevitably do to me.
added on the 2021-01-01 12:59:56 by ham ham
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Am I'm allowed to participate in this discussion, or am I disqualified because I'm a white man?


No one is saying you can't participate. It's not OK for a white man (or anyone else for that matter) to dismiss issues someone faces because he doesn't face those issues himself, but I don't see you doing that here.

Again, I'm sure someone on Twitter would argue that a white man should never speak, but again, I hope we're better than Twitter.
added on the 2021-01-01 13:02:09 by jobe jobe
Quote:
as these example phrases are meant for the specific situation of having something to apologize about

Perhaps you should take a little more than a cursory glance at the manifesto because that's definitely not the only situation where it prescribes or forbids certain phrases.
added on the 2021-01-01 13:02:39 by havoc havoc
Ok, there's also the painful statements bit. I'd like to think there's a wee bit of gray area between a day at Taco Bell and casually saying things like "Do they have broadband internet where you come from?"
added on the 2021-01-01 13:10:28 by jobe jobe
There's also:

Quote:
When you hear a fellow scener make painful statements, or tell cruel jokes about folks based on their background, question it. A very useful sentence is "I’m curious. What was your intention when you said that?" This question provides the speaker the opportunity to realize they may need to rethink.


which you could read in bad faith and assume SJWs will throw you out if you don't use those exact same words. Or, you could read it in good faith and assume that's not the case. Asking something like "what makes you say that", in your own words, is well within the spirit of the manifesto.
added on the 2021-01-01 13:21:46 by jobe jobe
The fact that the particular use of language in that manifesto can be offensive despite the benevolent spirit of the same proves that it is inevitable to offend someone as soon as opinions that have any substance are expressed.
added on the 2021-01-01 13:28:58 by ham ham
Quote:
Ok, there's also the painful statements bit. I'd like to think there's a wee bit of gray area between a day at Taco Bell and casually saying things like "Do they have broadband internet where you come from?"

I actually get that exact question quite often. To me it's funny and not offensive at all. You're also more than welcome to ask me if I milk my own cows and if my toilet is a wooden shelf with a hole in it and a bucket under.
added on the 2021-01-01 13:30:07 by havoc havoc
“It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine.”
- Stephen Fry

Also as a woman, I’ve never experienced any of the crap people are talking about, in fact I find demoparties one of the places I’ve experienced equal and welcoming interactions, most people ask me what I make or do, up to this point nobody has asked me *who am I here with* and I’ve been going to demo parties for a mighty long time.

Also the whole point of demoparties is to criticise and give feedback, it’s to show off you are elite or want to be 😁
added on the 2021-01-01 13:36:35 by megmeg megmeg
I've grown weary of the current narrative around identity politics, where a mass of Twitter users will strawman the "straight white male" as some kind of compound identity and always assume the worst examples are representative of the whole - and that those fitting that criteria are excluded from any conversation. You can't fight discrimination with discrimination.

Quote:
Possibly the most common example is women going to parties, and getting asked first thing who they came with, because obviously they must be somebody's girlfriend, no? If you're a coder who's really interested in realtime graphics and you just turned up to your first party, this is just really insulting.


Okay, well - having been someone who has taken a girlfriend to a party (one who had no interest in the demoscene), and know sceners that have taken their girlfriends / wives / friends / children to parties, is it really that unfair an assumption to make? I guess it comes down to the intentions of the person asking really. I wouldn't assume bad faith unless my intuition said otherwise.

My sister helped with the catering a few times and had people asked who she came with and she said "Oh, Ruairi's my brother so I'm just helping out with the food!". I mean, every party I've ran, for those who did come along with their partners I'd say about half of them weren't demosceners (often some sceners would combine the trip with a family break and blend the party with local excursions). Context matters here I suppose because the Sundown/Nova location is a tourist area too so often this is used in relationship discussions to negotiate the visit anyway.

If someone had prior knowledge that you were a coder and female, then it's insulting. I'd just always give people the benefit of the doubt, you can always enlighten them in due course. I know this sucks, a more diverse demoscene benefits everyone but I suppose you have to be pragmatic to a certain extent and give well-intentioned people the opportunity to save face.
added on the 2021-01-01 13:38:57 by rc55 rc55
Yet another CoC? Make more demos!
added on the 2021-01-01 13:49:44 by Crumb Crumb
Quote:
Possibly the most common example is women going to parties, and getting asked first thing who they came with, because obviously they must be somebody's girlfriend, no? If you're a coder who's really interested in realtime graphics and you just turned up to your first party, this is just really insulting.


I believe that if someone ask, instead, "Did you came alone?" to someone (regardless if that person is a girl or a boy) there is a chance that this question would be also offensive.

My point is... No matter what your true intentions are, everything can be take as an offense by someone. Moreover, the same phrase can not be taken as an offense by the same person if it is spoken by different people.

But the solution is not to be silent to avoid any conflict. Just talk more and, hopefully, the other person will understand your intentions. Also, if you feel insulted say it immediately and perhaps you'll find that the other person intention was not to offend you.

I'm sorry for using as an example that quote above. I would prefer to use pre-made examples created by IA trained with twitter and not real-life examples.
added on the 2021-01-01 13:57:13 by ham ham
Another thing I wanted to mention is it's not always so clear-cut, as you'll have women that only visit parties with their partners and occasionally contribute or participate - and are often invaluable at making non-sceners feel welcome, even if they may not strictly consider themselves one.

I'd prefer not to draw attention to them specifically but it shouldn't take long to think of a few examples if you've been in the scene for any length of time.
added on the 2021-01-01 14:06:40 by rc55 rc55
I am sorry for this post.
Why especially hyper intelligent dicks call others a dick? Chicken egg or mirror in the mirror paradox? Real life ray tracing effects? I think being super kind to nine people you need to like (masked?) is no excuse to be a crazed kid (unmasked?) when meeting number 0F (and number 0F then starts to be a dick when meeting number 00 again and so on). True harmony is an illusion, but please don't frighten away less (clit/dick war) experienced scenesters or be a dark sider idol. Some years ago I put some foreign language phrases from the bbs in a translator and I just was: WTF, use a private messenger, alt topic or whatever. Now my brain is downgraded with shitty words I even didn't know before. xD The same persons are coding beautiful demo art, sure we love it and all bad behaivior was just for fun and is forgiven because of that.
Scene magig.
added on the 2021-01-01 14:13:12 by aqu aqu
Quote:
Asking something like "what makes you say that", in your own words, is well within the spirit of the manifesto.

Are you sure? You're quoting the part where this particular sentence is deemed "very useful" but if you read the whole manifesto you'll notice the exact same sentence is mentioned again and actually claimed to be "magical".
added on the 2021-01-01 14:18:30 by havoc havoc
Quote:
Why especially hyper intelligent dicks call others a dick?


Right. The proper term should be hyper dick.
added on the 2021-01-01 14:50:44 by ham ham
Oh my.
What a load of bullshit the scene has become.
Do we really need this hand-holding shit?
Do you really think you can micro manage „Painful statements“ with a manifesto?
Esp. in an demo party environment where 50% of people are drunk as fuck, sleep deprived, etc.
added on the 2021-01-01 15:44:27 by spike spike
I’m happy about this project, it comes at the right time - a time when healing is more important than ever.

We need to raise awareness about the topics in the introduction text on that website, but I don’t see them so dramatic in all points.

ELITISM was a thing back in the days, but its gone.
If you didn’t knew someone known, it was kinda hard to get into the circle.
But the „elite sceners“, which wouldn’t call themself this anymore, know this and the scene crosses the point from snobby uplifting nose elitism to supporting new talents.

Take the whole FARBRAUSCH Crew for example or FAIRLIGHT, MERCURY, ASD, Razor1911, TBL, HAUJOBB (way ahead of onboarding newbies by filling ém with Kölsch), Accession, LOGICOMA, TRSI and and and…
Just to drop a few known names, I could go on endless - they all are so supportive. Especially when it comes to newbies or even oldies that want to learn something new.

Yes, there was elitism. And yes, It was a problem.
It is not anymore, we all noticed that we need to be more open to save the scene we love so…

…we started a „newbie table“ and mentorship at REVISION were new sceners can ask all the questions they have and if they want to meet one of their „idols“ - we connect them.

…we launched the NEW TALENT Award in the METEORIKS as a springboard to get attention. Winning is nice, but we all just love to see our name on the big screen…even if its just as a nominee.

And in the revision crew, we welcome new sceners as helpers with open arms anyway.

So this point is, from my point of view, an outdated topic.
I don’t see any elitism anymore.

All „elite sceners“ I know (don´t get me wrong, I really know almost everyone)- wouldn’t call themselves that anymore and turned into very very supportive beings.

I think, as an aspie myself, we should be more aware that the demoscene is a collective with a very high amount of people on the spectrum („No shit Sherlock?!“) and that there is a tend to overthinking and lack of social behavior here and there.

And this is what brings me to the very important topic on this projects website:

„Healing insecurity“

At demo parties, we can see people dance who would never do so outside of this bubble. We see people communicate verbally, sometimes after a few beers, who hate verbal communication (I. Hate. It.) and we see people hugging each other who hate being touched outside in real life.

But we see aswell, that some people react a bit harsh which leads to overthinking in the counterpart and may cause conflicts and/or views that could be avoided.

I know what I am talking about, I’ve been a badass(hole) for years (long time ago) just because of my own insecurity.

This is a thing, were mentors or mediators could help to defuse situations.

But what we SHOULD NOT DO is:
Trying to change the rituals, traditions and general habits of the scene.

For sure, when you don’t know how the partycrowd is reacting since decades and you see your productions on the big screen and people shout out „SCHEISSE!“ „AMIGA“ It may hit you hard when you don’t know this.

But:
The scene is not bad.
Its just sarcastic sometimes.
Shoutings like these are tradition and even if it doesn’t feel so - you have been seen.

I saw sceners shouting „SCHEISSE“ and they realized that this caused pain in the face of the newbie participant - and the shouter went to him to clap him on the shoulder „this is what we do“ and the smile came back to his face.

If someone takes a party shot of you to create a beam slide you can either start to cry - or just learn to laugh.
Don’t try to change the scene, that won’t work.
Adapt, take part, enjoy yourself.

Which is for sure not easy when you are an insecure person, but instead of raging - It helps then to talk to someone who may explain that this humor is part of the scene and nothing toxic, nothing that relates to the world outside of the scene.

Yes, we should encourage more people to gain self esteem and we should motivate. And yes, when we see bullying it is ffs everyones job to either react by themself or report it to someone who is capable of doing something.

See, I engage myself since years in mediation between sceners who have unsolved differences and I love supporting newbies.

I still get a warm feeling, when I remember that newbie I met at REVISION once who was such a big fan of FAIRLIGHT as he told me and we walked through the hall, he was telling me all the time what a great group that is and I was just looking were smash was standin´ just to surprise the Newbie with „Hey SMASH, do you have time for a chat with XY? He’s a huge fan of yours“ and SMASH was like „Yes sure. Hi XY what you’re up to? Want beer?“.

I had so many lovely situations like these…

Anyway:
I would love when such project could help raising awareness and tears down social barriers.

But newbies should be also aware of this one basic rule:
THE SCENE. ONCE YOU´RE IN - YOU´RE IN.

No matter if you code, paint, bass, direct, organize or just being moral support.

Since years the scene is so much more than the number of releases a scener has.

I know sceners, who never released anything - but that doesn’t make them less valuable than others.
added on the 2021-01-01 16:19:09 by _docd^hjb _docd^hjb
reading all this i mostly agree with rc55's initial post.

i understand the intent of the ethics thing, to try to become a sort of reference/guideline to promote more inclusion. i'm all for that.

but i think it could probably have been phrased a bit better to avoid triggering the folks who will see it as patronizing / a thing that will attempt to turn their fun events into places where everyone will have to tread carefully 24/7 not to say the wrong thing to the wrong person. how would a fear culture make an event more inclusive? just make people afraid of talking to each other.

people are complicated -_-
added on the 2021-01-01 16:22:31 by psenough psenough
If you think that we don't need to call each other out on shitty behaviour, you might just be part of the problem.

I've experienced/seen stuff like sexism and transphobia often enough that I don't think it's a bad idea to educate people. Some of it will be unintentional -- lord knows I was a massive dickhead (and still occasionally am) -- but nobody grows or learns by being ignored.

Does it happen a *lot*? Not in my experience. In some people's experience, it doesn't happen at all. Does that mean we shouldn't strive to be better and hold each other accountable? absolutely not.

Yes, it's an uncomfortable topic. It's uncomfortable to be confronted with your own behaviours and biases. It's uncomfortable to tell other people they're not being nice. It does ultimately make for a more inclusive space for everyone.

It's not going to stop anyone from being an absolute total asshole. Assholes are going to be that way, but we can at least do our best to make them feel unwelcome.

Your speech isn't being policed, and if you feel like it is, you *might* want to reflect back on yourself to see why -- because if you're not doing anything wrong, you're not the problem. The only reason you should be upset about this is because you actively want to be a dick to people.

You can have fun and make jokes without punching down, and if you can't, you're just not that funny.

A lot of the people I see responding negatively to this are people I *know* to be reasonable, and I don't understand why ny'all feel so targeted by this. If you're doing your best to be nice and inclusive, you shouldn't feel attacked, offended, or take issue with people trying to make the scene a nicer place. All that's asked is standing up for eachother.

Sincerely, a trans-female scener that has been purposefully misgendered, told "girls can't code", and received threats involving death and mutilation, to name a few examples.
added on the 2021-01-01 17:29:43 by lynn lynn
Quote:
A lot of the people I see responding negatively to this are people I *know* to be reasonable, and I don't understand why ny'all feel so targeted by this.


Quote:
i think it could probably have been phrased a bit better to avoid triggering the folks who will see it as patronizing / a thing that will attempt to turn their fun events into places where everyone will have to tread carefully 24/7 not to say the wrong thing to the wrong person. how would a fear culture make an event more inclusive? just make people afraid of talking to each other.


I guess this is what triggered me maybe a bit too much earlier today. for me a big appeal of the scene is it's anarchic "everything goes" (as long nobody else is hurt obviously) attitude. Some of it is wild and not family friendly. But does it have to?

Quote:
Sincerely, a trans-female scener that has been purposefully misgendered, told "girls can't code", and received threats involving death and mutilation, to name a few examples.

:(
added on the 2021-01-01 17:54:04 by v3nom v3nom
Lynn, these experiences are really sad to hear and it's not what the scene should be about. These people should feel ashamed of themselves.
added on the 2021-01-01 17:56:32 by v3nom v3nom
There's a difference between "girls can't code" (bigotry) and "this demo is rubbish and a waste of my time" (criticism).

My point is, it's important not to conflate the two, so where I would say speech is being policed applies to where criticism of something that isn't immutable is being discouraged. You can always write another demo. You can always choose to disregard the criticisms of someone who doesn't understand the art.

Criticism is kinda part and parcel of putting your works in the public domain. You can't mandate how people respond to it, but you do have agency on how you respond to them. (And you can critique me on that opinion too!).

Lynn: I'm saddened also to hear about the shit you've had to put up with as well. If I was privy to it at the time be assured I would have called it out if it was safe to do so.
added on the 2021-01-01 18:12:14 by rc55 rc55

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