Demoscene Ethics

category: general [glöplog]
If this is too much, then there’s no way in hell I’m going to visit your party. I’ve heard too many bad stories, it’s a risk I’m not prepared to take.

Oh come on, really? Are we doing this now? That's beyond unnecessary aggressive.

Anyway. As some of you might have noticed (by starring at my boobs, mostly) I'm a woman in the demoscene. Shocker, right. Got the all-in "Whose girlfriend are you" experience, with bonus "What are YOU doing here" treatment and didn't get the t-shirt because it was, well, too tight in the boobs area. ;)

There are some asshole personalities in this community, which has been known for a long time and while I do agree that it's healthy to encourage a friendly conversation and open our doors towards newbies, I'm afraid that the CoC approach and some of the wording here is not going to make this better - that's just not how you deal with cocky old guys who, deep inside, are still the same insecure teenagers who are desperately trying to keep the glory of the "simple good old days" alive and trying hard to make themselves feel relevant once more. So how do you deal with that? Or do you?

Nobody is going to believe this, but I'll say it anyway: Just like Scamp, I've always been the outcast weirdo who never dared to embrace her weirdness and stand up to those who made me feel like shit. That's until i discovered that this skill can easily be practiced within the training ground that is the demoscene. I talk shit back to those who don't respect me as a member. I'm not practicing apologies, I practice skills (you don't have to include fuckings in your demos, but it sure is more fun than a lorem ipsum mock text!) and giggle with excitement when someone from the "dragon girls on motorcycles" aesthetics department gives me a dumb feedback, because I sure have time to drink a beer while spitting fire. And if they actually have a comment, if they're worth a dime, they might start a healthier conversation. Everyone likes a challenge.

Of course we want to encourage people to make stuff. That's what we're here for. But I, personally, suggest encouraging people to not be afraid of trying to stand up for themselves because honestly, it does work pretty well in this community. And if it doesn't, we're there for you. That goes without saying.

And well: I'd like to thank every drunk dickhead (you know who you are <3 ) for giving me enough anger-powered energy to prove them otherwise. I miss you too :*
added on the 2021-01-01 22:16:16 by darya darya
ps: I think that scamp has expressed his opinion quite reasonably and I don't feel that he is being and asshole.

But this is just my slightly autistic opinion and perhaps other people would disagree.
added on the 2021-01-01 22:18:47 by ham ham
Maybe Pouet needs a CoC.

added on the 2021-01-01 22:19:34 by Gargaj Gargaj
added on the 2021-01-01 22:21:28 by _docd^hjb _docd^hjb
Gargaj: DAYUM!
added on the 2021-01-01 22:22:43 by _docd^hjb _docd^hjb
From the Declaration of Scene Ethics:
"Encourage new sceners and others who place low in compos to keep trying, learning, and contributing. When you feel angry and upset about "failing", examine your feelings. Talk to someone you trust about these feelings."

My two cents is that crying usually helps. Don't try to fight back the tears. They are part of the processes related to the functions of parasympathetic nervous system which aims to return your body to its regular state. Also, fully accepting the sorrow is likely to make the encounter less frightening in the future and possibly brings your spirit closer to the Scene Gods.
Or, instead of crying or feeling upset, start a new prod. You don't even need to release it in a compo next time (though it would be cool).
added on the 2021-01-01 23:08:31 by ham ham
Well, apparently I’m part of the problem because I don’t see the problem. I also don’t understand why people constantly feel the need to be overly politically correct. I hate drama and I hate walking on eggshells, so I will do everybody a big favor and leave you all in peace. Thanks a lot for ruining 2021.
added on the 2021-01-01 23:53:37 by PerfectPC PerfectPC
I hate drama

Thanks a lot for ruining 2021.

added on the 2021-01-02 00:04:26 by darya darya
Thanks a lot for ruining 2021.

Yay, that 2021 escalated quickly!

Fortune Cookie says: Walking on eggshells way easier if trumple them
added on the 2021-01-02 00:10:22 by T$ T$
I hate drama as well, glad to see people delivering comedy gold
added on the 2021-01-02 00:30:30 by darya darya
Just had another thought, even though I still can't find my mic (i must have dropped it somewhere): Out of the many dumb experiences I've had within the last 7 years of scening adventures, the ones I felt especially icky about involved heavy ass white knighting. Which is funny because the manner of the act itself would be actually totally within the moral recommendations stated in the opening post.

Ain't that something to think about!
added on the 2021-01-02 00:50:40 by darya darya
I do not really want to talk about demoscene ethics, because this trend kinda shows the futility of it all.

Nevertheless, I want to expose a logical fallacy that often resurfaces in Pouet. The fallacy is starts by saying that "I was a person who found it impossible to connect to other people", but then he/she (oh, who do I kid, he of course) found the demoscene and was welcomed. A conclusion is then made that the demoscene is the most friendly and welcoming of all the communities the poster's aware of.

Let me demonstrate the fallacy of this argument by using several counterexamples. "I was an ass to other people and other people usually did not like me back. However, I then found other people who also enjoyed being asses to other people and they became my really good friends. Surely, our small community of assholes is the friendliest and the most welcoming community of assholes there is."

"I was a shy and lonely person who found it impossible to connect to other people. However, I then founded the National Socialist party and found real friends there, who chose me as their leader and even brought me to power. This proves that the National Socialist party is the friendliest bunch of people ever."
added on the 2021-01-02 02:13:44 by introspec introspec
One must admit, if there were such a thing as a "most illogical Nazi comparison" compo, you'd be... the one entry in it.
added on the 2021-01-02 02:56:45 by kb_ kb_
introspec: I'm willing to pretend that i never read this bullshit if you submit a one sentence essay about the importance of forming words into sentenses that actually do make sense.
added on the 2021-01-02 02:58:47 by darya darya
"What are you doing here?"

a drunken person mistakenly sits on you computer tying to log in, you look at it for a while and say "What are you doing here? you sit 2 rows down."

you meet a person you haven't seen in ages:
"What are you doing here?" and you hug.

the point i am trying to make is that depending on the context of the situation the same phrase could be

- an insult
- a joke
- an encouragement
- neutral
or even
-paying respect

I am sure the friendly banter between groups that got people off their asses is responsible for some of the best compos, and a lot of the phrases used in what I would call "friendly banter" could easily land on the painful phrases section of the ethics page.

tl;dr context matters
added on the 2021-01-02 02:59:57 by abductee abductee
[Godwin's law intensifies]
added on the 2021-01-02 03:23:21 by wertstahl wertstahl
introspec's point for people who prefer their WW2 analogies to be more aircraft-themed: Survivorship bias

"I was a social misfit, but then I found the demoscene and everything was fine" doesn't tell you anything about the population of people who *didn't* find themselves welcome in the demoscene for whatever reason.
added on the 2021-01-02 03:47:09 by gasman gasman
abductee: Context matters, indeed. I really wish people would look more into the context of messages, instead of trying to get triggered of words.

gasman: You are correct. But of course this brings up the question, on who decides what a social misfit is.

I didn't get the feeling I was living in a community of assholes for the last 25 years, though. And of course I could be living in an echo chamber regarding that, but luckily for once the outside world is of use here: After seeing naked danish people on stage, the conservative mayor of our town told us that we are lovely folks. As did the police, who wondered why the only troublemakers they every experienced at Breakpoint had been local village nazis trying to break into the party grounds. And the fire men, who were shocked how safely we run things. And the TV stations.

Again and again people where shocked that even under influence of tons of alcohol (or other drugs), where most "normal" people would turn into total dickheads we guys never tried to hurt others.

Yes, that were examples only given from demoparties. But this is an online forum.

So, to find out if we are a community of assholes now go to ANY other place you wish to pick on the Internet, find a subject under discussion that is emotionally heated, and compare the level of escalation you'll find to this here.

The worst we had in this thread were people - rightfully - hurt because they can't stand scene drama right now.

Oh boy, I wish that this would be the biggest problem if you'd discuss such emotional stuff elsewhere.

Seriously, a lot of people should put more - realistic - value in what we have here.

That doesn't mean we can't improve, we can. But can we please stop the self-flagellation?
added on the 2021-01-02 06:06:36 by scamp scamp
Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law.

added on the 2021-01-02 07:29:05 by Salinga Salinga
Actually, I did not say anyone in particular in this thread is an asshole. I did say that an asshole is not necessarily going to think of him/her as an asshole, and may in fact find the community of other assholes incredibly friendly and nurturing.

The demoscene has been exceptionally good to me and I found real friends all around the world. However, this does not make the demoscene community is somehow exceptionally friendly. I participated in some other creative communities that were just as friendly as the scene.

In fact, I think it would be far healthier to say that demoscene community, just as any other community, has some issues that would be lovely to address. As in "admitting the problem is the first step to addressing it". However, the prevailing attitude seems to prefer an exceptionalist point of view, where the demoscene is somehow magically free from the ills of humankind. It is the same kind of thinking as that which led Britain to Brexit.
added on the 2021-01-02 09:12:42 by introspec introspec
oh look, a problem has been created :')
added on the 2021-01-02 09:29:26 by superplek superplek
I read and laugh at the reasoning about ethics. Who is speaking? rc55, which missed the submitted works on demoparty. Instead of admitting his mistakes, he acted like an asshole. introspec who publicly insulted and provoked other characters with the support of his "friends" found. sq, who fiercely fights against negative influences from the 90s, indulges himself in insults. Guys, for you one diagnosis is hypocrisy, and all beautiful words are worthless. I do not believe that you have realized your mistakes. Not satisfied with the demoscene? There is a solution - dump it to hell.
added on the 2021-01-02 10:00:34 by g0blinish g0blinish
I read and laugh at the reasoning about ethics. Who is speaking? rc55, which missed the submitted works on demoparty. Instead of admitting his mistakes, he acted like an asshole. introspec who publicly insulted and provoked other characters with the support of his "friends" found. sq, who fiercely fights against negative influences from the 90s, indulges himself in insults. Guys, for you one diagnosis is hypocrisy, and all beautiful words are worthless. I do not believe that you have realized your mistakes. Not satisfied with the demoscene? There is a solution - dump it to hell.

For context, six years ago I forgot to show g0blinish's entry at Sundown 2014. I apologised as soon as I found out (which g0blinish must have forgotten) and continued to receive unfair criticism and insults from g0blinish.

You can read the prod comments here and judge for yourself:

g0blinish: I have apologised and I'm still sorry I missed your production back then but I won't put up with someone disproportionately posting abuse about me or anyone that defended me. The fact you brought it up here is tenuous and petty, there's no way you can benefit from dragging it up, and furthermore it detracts from a lot of the productive talks ongoing regarding the scene. I really wish you weren't angry but you seem insatiable in that aspect so I'm not going to engage past this point.
added on the 2021-01-02 10:44:39 by rc55 rc55
For the context, g0blinish is tracking my every word online and writes derogatory commentary about everything I say and do, sometimes on a daily basis. How's that fitting the description of the kind and welcoming community?

I actually made peace with it a long time ago. I like making demos more than I dislike this kind of nonsense, esp. since it is all words and memes, zero action. Yet it is hard to avoid bumping into him in public places, when he effectively stalks me.
added on the 2021-01-02 10:59:36 by introspec introspec