pouët.net

Demoscene Ethics

category: general [glöplog]
Quote:
and continued to receive unfair criticism and insults from g0blinish.


poor guy :\ you forgot two entries
added on the 2021-01-02 11:17:51 by g0blinish g0blinish
Booo-hooo, look who took my sandbox shovel!
added on the 2021-01-02 12:33:20 by T$ T$
Quote:
Booo-hooo, look who took my sandbox shovel!
lol
added on the 2021-01-02 12:49:46 by Sir Sir


I love that movie
added on the 2021-01-02 14:44:12 by g0blinish g0blinish
Quote:
introspec's point for people who prefer their WW2 analogies to be more aircraft-themed: Survivorship bias

"I was a social misfit, but then I found the demoscene and everything was fine" doesn't tell you anything about the population of people who *didn't* find themselves welcome in the demoscene for whatever reason.



gasman has leading.
added on the 2021-01-02 14:57:40 by lynn lynn
also stop giving g0blinish attention, he's clearly here to make it about him and not about the actual issue.
added on the 2021-01-02 14:59:52 by lynn lynn
Quote:
How's that fitting the description of the kind and welcoming community?


@ introspec:
You should not judge a whole community based on the actions of one single member.
added on the 2021-01-02 15:15:19 by gaspode gaspode
I just want to make a belated and particular statment of support for all of the queer folks, especially transwomen, who have raised their voices in this thread.
Their experiences are among many worth listening to and taking seriously.
There is so much to be curious about and learn about other folks' experiences in the world to live a richer life with other people.
I'm also grateful for all the folks on here who see something worthwhile in this project and want to be involved with it.

There was a group of folks involved in putting this together, and I hope with them and the folks who have signed this so far, productive and helpful things will happen.
This document, which the team all agreed is not and must not be a Code of Conduct but rather a guideline, is just a starting point.

For the folks who this upsets, I regret that you are unhappy. I suggest you take a breath and look in yourselves to see what you have to lose from this document some folks find interesting and want to support because they feel it is a way to do good for the scene and for sceners they care about.

You can cheerfully choose to ignore this project if you feel it isn't relevant to you. That is ok. It does not take anything away from you.

All it does is try to give some things to people who want and need them.

You can change your mind any time. You can be part of future discussions in the coming years when this document can be revised and put to new purposes.

The focus will always remain the same: to support inclusion in the scene and be part of keeping fresh blood flowing in to keep it alive.

The scene has traditions, like many cultures and subcultures around the world.
We can honor these while adapting to ensure that the scene continues to grow and adapt to each generation over time, to make it something that could outlive everyone reading this, if we get it right, and we are lucky.

There is something everyone reading and writing in this thread has in common: we are sceners and we love the scene.

<3
added on the 2021-01-02 16:07:48 by metoikos metoikos
Quote:
In fact, I think it would be far healthier to say that demoscene community, just as any other community, has some issues that would be lovely to address.

I think that website wouldnt come across so weird (to some at least) if it just didnt try so hard to be "demoscene related" for that matter. It might also be good to demonstrate the actual problems - by giving actual examples - instead of listing abstract rules and suggestions on how to behave in a mostly hypothetical situation. When someone has "horror stories" about a demo party, i'd like to hear them, so i can learn what was wrong and what could possibly done about it. And what went wrong so that nothing was done about it. Such abstract "oh please be nice, ok" instructions are somewhat pointless in that context, because you know, most of us are already trying to be. And those who are not will not read nor care about that website.
added on the 2021-01-02 16:31:11 by groepaz groepaz
And I left out a bit because clumsy typing with my thunbs:

Thank you everyone who is participating thoughtfully in this discussion.

Is either the document or this discussion perfect? No.
Does it have to be? No.
It is a starting point.

Any way this helps folks learn and grow and helps the scene is a good thing.
added on the 2021-01-02 16:31:38 by metoikos metoikos
Quote:

Anyway. As some of you might have noticed (by starring at my boobs, mostly) I'm a woman in the demoscene. Shocker, right. Got the all-in "Whose girlfriend are you" experience, with bonus "What are YOU doing here" treatment and didn't get the t-shirt because it was, well, too tight in the boobs area. ;)

There are some asshole personalities in this community, which has been known for a long time and while I do agree that it's healthy to encourage a friendly conversation and open our doors towards newbies, I'm afraid that the CoC approach and some of the wording here is not going to make this better - that's just not how you deal with cocky old guys who, deep inside, are still the same insecure teenagers who are desperately trying to keep the glory of the "simple good old days" alive and trying hard to make themselves feel relevant once more. So how do you deal with that? Or do you?

Nobody is going to believe this, but I'll say it anyway: Just like Scamp, I've always been the outcast weirdo who never dared to embrace her weirdness and stand up to those who made me feel like shit. That's until i discovered that this skill can easily be practiced within the training ground that is the demoscene. I talk shit back to those who don't respect me as a member. I'm not practicing apologies, I practice skills (you don't have to include fuckings in your demos, but it sure is more fun than a lorem ipsum mock text!) and giggle with excitement when someone from the "dragon girls on motorcycles" aesthetics department gives me a dumb feedback, because I sure have time to drink a beer while spitting fire. And if they actually have a comment, if they're worth a dime, they might start a healthier conversation. Everyone likes a challenge.

Of course we want to encourage people to make stuff. That's what we're here for. But I, personally, suggest encouraging people to not be afraid of trying to stand up for themselves because honestly, it does work pretty well in this community. And if it doesn't, we're there for you. That goes without saying.

And well: I'd like to thank every drunk dickhead (you know who you are <3 ) for giving me enough anger-powered energy to prove them otherwise. I miss you too :*


I have had the same experience, although I'm not a woman but NB (but I'm seen as a woman so what ever) and I'm also queer as hell. I find all the journey tiring. I'm out of anger and energy. It's not only a driving force but it consumes you. I have made a shit loads of demos just out of spite or because I was angry, irritated, etc.. I know how to defend my self but the process there was painful. If I wasn't so fucking stubborn I would have left years ago. And I feel kind of sorry for the people who aren't as stubborn as me, who would still make great prods and be a great addition to our demoscene community but who will never make it. So I don't think this is the way all people from different minorities should have their journey to the demoscene. I think we can do better and still give each others challenge, critique and sarcastic comments and do everything demoscene is about but just being less ignorant.

As metoikos said, this isn't a CoC. This isn't even something that enforces you to do anything. This is a conversation opener, a wage guideline and a way to get these things out to open. I'm so disappointed that so many here doesn't think that we even need to discuss these things. I also wish that people would read the page not thinking it is a personal attack or an attack towards a demoscene. It's not. If we didn't love demoscene why would we even care?
added on the 2021-01-02 16:43:57 by rimina rimina
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although I'm not a woman but NB (but I'm seen as a woman so what ever)

BTW, one thing that may not be obvious to you - if you want people to understand what you are saying, dont use abbrevations like this. I honestly dont care about anyones sexual orientation at all (assuming this is what it hints at?) so i am not keeping myself updated on those things. I'd still like to hear what the actual problems are, and how "NB" is related to it.
added on the 2021-01-02 17:10:51 by groepaz groepaz
Quote:
Quote:
although I'm not a woman but NB (but I'm seen as a woman so what ever)

BTW, one thing that may not be obvious to you - if you want people to understand what you are saying, dont use abbrevations like this. I honestly dont care about anyones sexual orientation at all (assuming this is what it hints at?) so i am not keeping myself updated on those things. I'd still like to hear what the actual problems are, and how "NB" is related to it.


It's really not my job to educate anyone. If I do so, I do it purely from good will. But I'm really tired and consumed by that already. But here we go. NB is nonbinary. How ever I don't care that much of pronouns 'cause I'm from Finland and it seems so irrelevant to me as we don't have gendered pronouns. I look like a woman so if people don't know they assume I'm a woman. I'm used to that so that's the "what ever" part. I correct people when I have energy to do so, usually I don't. I don't have time and energy to discuss my identity with strangers on daily basis and I think people should also respect that and use google.
added on the 2021-01-02 17:14:24 by rimina rimina
For what it's worth, I've brought three female companions to demoparties over the years and all of them have felt uncomfortable at times due to people's behavior directed straight at them and/or due to certain aspects of the scene culture and mindset. But that's their story to tell.

The fact that you don't personally see or care about the problem doesn't mean that it isn't there. I've never been a target of racism that I know of, but it doesn't mean it's not out there.
added on the 2021-01-02 17:14:59 by Preacher Preacher
Quote:
It might also be good to demonstrate the actual problems - by giving actual examples - instead of listing abstract rules and suggestions on how to behave in a mostly hypothetical situation.


I agree with this.
added on the 2021-01-02 17:18:07 by gaspode gaspode
Quote:
It's really not my job to educate anyone.

i thought thats the whole point of this discussion. And if you write something, it would help that you write it in a way that not only someone from your peer group can understand. In this case, what you wrote wouldnt even enable me to look it up on the mighty google.
Quote:
The fact that you don't personally see or care about the problem doesn't mean that it isn't there.

Of course not. However, repeating "we have a problem" a dozen times will not enable me to understand wtf the problem really is either. Or what i could possibly do about it. And without actual examples we will never be able to work out where exactly we draw the line between "this is unacceptable" and "this is kinda lame, deal with it".
added on the 2021-01-02 17:31:48 by groepaz groepaz
Some terminology for context re Rimina's post. Not perfect but something.
https://stonewall.org.uk/help-advice/faqs-and-glossary/glossary-terms
added on the 2021-01-02 17:39:27 by metoikos metoikos
There will be a video in a compo at sometime with more context, but this was a starting point.
added on the 2021-01-02 17:41:22 by metoikos metoikos
Quote:
For what it's worth, I've brought three female companions to demoparties over the years and all of them have felt uncomfortable at times due to people's behavior directed straight at them and/or due to certain aspects of the scene culture and mindset. But that's their story to tell.

The fact that you don't personally see or care about the problem doesn't mean that it isn't there. I've never been a target of racism that I know of, but it doesn't mean it's not out there.


I've spoken with one or two significant others of demosceners who would not normally visit without their partners and they've felt a bit uncomfortable when being asked how they are contributing to the party - can we not take this particular issue so seriously?

If the demoscene was averse to diversity we'd have a problem, but going by the evidence things are moving in the right direction. There's still a ways to go, but it's not the boys club it once was.
added on the 2021-01-02 17:42:26 by rc55 rc55
Sorry, my previous response does not apply to the quote I pasted in.

Of course, if people are being made to feel uncomfortable that absolutely has to be discussed.
added on the 2021-01-02 17:50:15 by rc55 rc55
Quote:
It's really not my job to educate anyone. If I do so, I do it purely from good will.


So it is everyones good will to educate him/herself about any topic.
But when someone demands change, he/she needs to be active part of it.

Just sit and wait, is not a solution.
Neither is a forced demand and/or constant victimization which sometimes fosters a sense of self-righteousness and arrogance - which again leads to misunderstandings and pushes away the people one wants to reach and/or change their perspectives.

We all need to keep in mind that the world owes us nothing and not a single scener owes anyone anything (philosophical view) and the scene itself owes noone nothing.
It doesnt matter what trauma, hurts and/or feelings anyone carries.

Awareness cant be forced but it can be trained.

Ah...and to the guys who fight here about forgotten entries and stuff:
Would you just shake hands and get over it?
Afaik the issue is from 2014, how much more energy will you dump in this shit?
Forgiveness is a thing.
added on the 2021-01-02 18:53:17 by _docd^hjb _docd^hjb
Quote:
Ah...and to the guys who fight here about forgotten entries and stuff:
Would you just shake hands and get over it?
Afaik the issue is from 2014, how much more energy will you dump in this shit?
Forgiveness is a thing.

Absolutely!
added on the 2021-01-02 18:54:41 by rc55 rc55
Quote:
So it is everyones good will to educate him/herself about any topic.
But when someone demands change, he/she needs to be active part of it.

Just sit and wait, is not a solution.
Neither is a forced demand and/or constant victimization which sometimes fosters a sense of self-righteousness and arrogance - which again leads to misunderstandings and pushes away the people one wants to reach and/or change their perspectives.

We all need to keep in mind that the world owes us nothing and not a single scener owes anyone anything (philosophical view) and the scene itself owes noone nothing.
It doesnt matter what trauma, hurts and/or feelings anyone carries.

Awareness cant be forced but it can be trained.


the thing here is that educating others is great in theory, but in practice it can be exhausting if one person has to do it over and over and over again to more and more people. also feels like having to justify one's existence before being able to do anything else
added on the 2021-01-02 19:08:33 by porocyon porocyon
porocyon: Exact. You cant "teach" someone who is unwilling to "learn", especially if it comes forced.

Example:
"You have it to do like this. This is from now on not named this, you HAVE to call it from now on that. If you dont do like i say: you are a blatant bully"

That is not working.

But everyone can help raising awareness, when we learn to communicate better or we just learn to ask for help and mediaton.

We are not in a schoolyard anymore.
added on the 2021-01-02 19:40:55 by _docd^hjb _docd^hjb

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