pouët.net

What happened from my side of View:

category: residue [glöplog]
Okay so let me try to be absolutely and infuriatingly levelheaded here:

He did a thing that most of the scene considered to be bad, and received consequences as a result. He presented his version of events and offered it up to the scene as an apology / excuse / rationalization (ymmv). The scene, for the most part, didn't accept it, and provided very specific reasons why.

That's where we are right now.

There is no mob, no witch hunt, no pitchforks, or anything you are hoping to imagine. (He's not banned from Pouet either, obviously.) What we're having is someone who - as far as I understand - has been deemed unwelcome to various parts of the community (some online, some offline) and is trying to appeal that decision, unsuccessfully. That's it.
added on the 2021-07-06 18:36:12 by Gargaj Gargaj
Quote:
And all what’s left is me still feeling guilty, although i´m NOT,


Yes, you are. If you know that you become offensive if you’re drunk, then DON'T DRINK. Simple as that.
added on the 2021-07-06 20:39:48 by gaspode gaspode
Quote:
DON'T DRINK. Simple as that.

Gaspode, have you ever been addicted to anything?
added on the 2021-07-07 01:08:50 by Sir Sir
@Sir: I somehow missed the part where hardy wrote he was an alcoholic. My fault. I‘m sorry.
added on the 2021-07-07 03:27:41 by gaspode gaspode
Quote:
addicted


Then that just needs to be dealt with. Not easy, but them's the breaks. Starting with this.

Quote:
an old long-not-seen-friend popped up just the day before Revision started and compelled me after like 2 hours of nagging to have a drink with him


This person is not a friend. This person is an asshole. If you have people in your life who egg you on to do destructive shit, cut all contact with them.

I fully support banning Hardy from all parties, at least for now, for four reasons.

1. I kind of like this idea of actions having consequences.

2. I recognize he needs help. You know what isn't help? Coming to an environment that has always had a drug problem and where substance abuse has always been glorified. (Which is an issue in and of itself, but let's deal with that some other day.)

3. I don't think he recognizes he needs help. I think he needs a wake-up call for that.

4. If all that fails, if that epiphany never comes and he never puts in the work to get his shit together, that's honestly sad. He's an incredibly flawed human being, but a human being nonetheless, and it takes a lot for me to have no good will towards a person at all. But if Hardy is always going to have a Hardy problem, I'm fine with no one else on the scene having a Hardy problem.
added on the 2021-07-07 03:33:15 by jobe jobe
Quote:
I miss the 90s with music like NIN - Closer.

What kind of toxic drama queens. The complete unicorn fraction in tha house.
Get a life.


Just to quote Wikipedia:
"Lyrically, "Closer" is a song about self-hatred and obsession; to Reznor's dismay, the song was widely misinterpreted as a lust anthem due to its chorus"

I think you meant, that you wish back times where sexual harrassment was a funny virtue. IT MAKES ME SICK. What exactly is the problem to realise and accept there are errors made in history (and are still going on) which threaten the wellbeing of others? How is it so hard to just change this behavior?

And no there is just no excuse for doing it anyway. You cannot force forgiveness. Reflect your action, accept your responsibility for them and be a better person.

I'm glad to see that the majority seems to understand. Respect.
added on the 2021-07-07 12:58:23 by chunna chunna
Quote:


This person is not a friend. This person is an asshole. If you have people in your life who egg you on to do destructive shit, cut all contact with them.

I fully support banning Hardy from all parties, at least for now, for four reasons.

1. I kind of like this idea of actions having consequences.

2. I recognize he needs help. You know what isn't help? Coming to an environment that has always had a drug problem and where substance abuse has always been glorified. (Which is an issue in and of itself, but let's deal with that some other day.)

3. I don't think he recognizes he needs help. I think he needs a wake-up call for that.



That's actually something I'd like to contradict:

I don't think banning from all parties is a consequence suitable as a wake-up call.

The scene itself is not a toxic environment that propagates substance abuse. There are some people abusing substances, yes. There are also a lot more people who use substances in a responsible way or don't use those substances at all.
From my perspective, the social stabilizing component of the scene is weighted and worth a lot more than the presence of substance abuse. That's why i don't see a ban helpful for someone who has a problem with substance abuse.

Tho, what I have already said multiple times on different occasions:
We need to have more awareness especially about alcohol consumption within our community. I'm not talking about people drinking, smoking weed or whatever they want to consume. I'm talking about situations I have encountered multiple times during parties. One example:

I remember some Schnappsgirls, including party orgas, standing in the toilet tunnel at revision, talking, litterally pressuring passing people into drinking Pepperschnapps, including me (after i told them I won't drink it. Since I rarely drink any booze). I just had the consequence of the Pepperschnapps taste. But:
Behaviour like that is -not ok- from my point of view. You don't know if I'm maybe a dry alcoholic. I luckily am not. But there are. And chances are high they didn't tell you. Because it's hard to talk about.
Be aware that behaviour like that can harm people. Please don't do stuff like that. Don't put people into that situation. If anyone wants to consume a substance, they can and will do that on their own. You don't need to push it onto them. We are supposed to care about each other and this counts into it.

Back to the topic:
I wouldn't justify a ban as a consequence meant as a wake-up-call or, to put it into harder words, a "punishment". I don't think withdrawing a community would work for that. It's also not on me to decide a punishment for something someone did.
I'd justify the ban simply of the following reasons:
Someone in our community seems to have repeatedly harrassed other people (of our community), which makes them victims and harms them. I don't want that to happen; I'd like people to be safe within the community. Because we should care about each other. As much sympathy I may have for a person, I can't justify them harming other people, for what reason ever. And I especially can't justify it when there is no sign that it will change to the better but excuses instead.
This creates an in-between-loyalty-situation I should not be in. But also a loyalty vs ethics situation which leaves me with no other choice than deciding for the solution I consider most ethical and that's protecting people from harm created by the shown behaviour of a person. At least if there is no sign that the responsible person is aware, honestly apologizing and working on not having that happen again.
added on the 2021-07-07 13:43:26 by RbR RbR
Quote:
Quote:
addicted


Then that just needs to be dealt with. Not easy, but them's the breaks. Starting with this.

Quote:
an old long-not-seen-friend popped up just the day before Revision started and compelled me after like 2 hours of nagging to have a drink with him


This person is not a friend. This person is an asshole. If you have people in your life who egg you on to do destructive shit, cut all contact with them.

I fully support banning Hardy from all parties, at least for now, for four reasons.

1. I kind of like this idea of actions having consequences.

2. I recognize he needs help. You know what isn't help? Coming to an environment that has always had a drug problem and where substance abuse has always been glorified. (Which is an issue in and of itself, but let's deal with that some other day.)

3. I don't think he recognizes he needs help. I think he needs a wake-up call for that.

4. If all that fails, if that epiphany never comes and he never puts in the work to get his shit together, that's honestly sad. He's an incredibly flawed human being, but a human being nonetheless, and it takes a lot for me to have no good will towards a person at all. But if Hardy is always going to have a Hardy problem, I'm fine with no one else on the scene having a Hardy problem.


This.
added on the 2021-07-07 15:44:51 by rimina rimina
Where is Maaili when you need him?
And Ringo?
added on the 2021-07-07 19:03:44 by w00t! w00t!
Better question: Are you contributing to this meaningfully? You might wanna dig up that email thread we had from 2014.
added on the 2021-07-07 19:24:13 by Gargaj Gargaj
plus I agree that Hardy's actions were unacceptable and that the initial post of this thread is a school example of shooting yourself in the foot, so no need to debate that ;)
added on the 2021-07-07 20:02:38 by havamal havamal
@Gargaj: yes I did. I was the first one to suggest this might be a witch hunt.
added on the 2021-07-07 20:08:10 by w00t! w00t!
What the devil !

Physically assaulting women at parties & menacing them of rape online once you're uninhibited by alcohol ? And you want people to believe that you're not sexually aroused ? Come on, if you really believe that you're just lying to yourself.
added on the 2021-07-07 20:39:05 by hitchhikr hitchhikr
Zugunfall

Hardy, bitte such dir Hilfe. Echt.
added on the 2021-07-08 12:51:22 by groepaz groepaz
hardy, you told me about you history once. please get professional help, get better, become a better person. you fucked up and it has been explained to you already in detail why that is in this thread. i fully concur with the elaborations that have been presented here. you went too far and apparently you don't get it so far.

you probably feel some sort of guilt you want to get rid off. "laughing it off" or this failed attempt to reinterpret it in hindsight obviously doesn't work.

you probably feel some sort of guilt, but beating yourself up about it is not the ultimate solution either, so I'd advise against that too.

as a community, we might give you another chance. but you really need to work on it, prove your learnings. you can't fake it. some people here admire you for your skills and personally I'd be sad to see your constructive contributions lost to the scene too. the ethics/beaniceperson/createaniceenvironment stuff totally overrules it though.

i wish you the best of luck, and i'd like to live in a world where you manage to rehabilitate yourself, learn from your mistakes, and ultimately help in making the demoscene a better place for everyone.

if you don't / if you don't want to: stay away.
added on the 2021-07-08 17:44:00 by jco jco
Is there some central committee to decide to ban Hardy from "all parties"? I thought every party decides themselves who to take in. As for the issue, which ever way i try to look at it, it's not looking too good for Hardy, indeed. I'm not someone who can judge him though, doing/saying all kind of things while drunk too (but actually not this type as the issue) and rather than canceling him i welcome Hardy to find me on Discord if you need to talk, about anything.
added on the 2021-07-08 20:15:09 by Serpent Serpent
Reading this thread I understand even less what D4XX went on and on about in that other thread. I thank my lucky star that I was born a man in Sweden and wasn't in the receiving end of this drunken criminal behavior.

People have the right to be pissed about this. "Witch hunt" my ass!
added on the 2021-07-08 23:24:29 by El Topo El Topo
I never said that his behaviour was not wrong or not something to be pissed about but let him who is without sin cast the first stone.
added on the 2021-07-09 08:17:45 by w00t! w00t!
I think it's pretty easy to find sceners who have not sent rape threats online or grabbed people at parties without their consent.
added on the 2021-07-09 09:32:45 by Preacher Preacher
Quote:
I never said that his behaviour was not wrong or not something to be pissed about but let him who is without sin cast the first stone.

Are you saying you've done the same things...?
added on the 2021-07-09 09:36:26 by Gargaj Gargaj
lol. no, and that's not what I am saying.
added on the 2021-07-09 09:51:35 by w00t! w00t!
Then surely you understand that there's a difference in severity.
added on the 2021-07-09 11:21:17 by Gargaj Gargaj
Quote:
Is there some central committee to decide to ban Hardy from "all parties"? I thought every party decides themselves who to take in.

There is no "central commitee" - and there will never be: One of the cornerstones of the demoscene is that we are decentralized and don't need a central instance.
But we orgas know each other and talk and exchange informations. And decisions like this (banning a person from a party) will be decided on a case-by-case basis in the respective orga teams for the parties.

One of my priorities as an organizer is to provide a party experience without fear and negative stress. Visiting a demoparty should create memories of friendship and the great entries we experience and not fear or worse.
Well,

After reading all those things i must say it´s still not easy to judge fair:

Factum :

Hardy, your behaviour against people / women is really NOT "ok" They are individuals like ME and YOU. The same counts for every human beeing. I´m also a fan of "dirty" jokes and even sometimes not fully political correct jokes but it´s one thing to make a general joke but another to adress this to someone who said "STOP"

this was simple a bullshit action similar to insult Darya. ( even if Darya and i might have some "slightly" different meanings on few topics BUT RESPECT MUST PERSIST )
To state it clear, this is Bullshit and would result in our group also with restrictions no matter how good you can code etc.

On the other hand : I´m not a big fan of throwing people out without a chance of coming back. Even though. Scene is a living organism and not a club of few people who decide who is in and who is out. So YES - A Ban itself was well deserved but it´s not ok to ban someone from a open Platform.
You need to work on your behave , REALLY ! and to find reasons to explain a bullshit joke is not the right way...really boy, it´s not. You should also see what consequences are necessary to avoid such situations.

You drink ? try to STOP.
You can´t stop try at least to choose some "Drink" Days, how it be a nice friday.
If you got drunk. Switch of the Computer and watch a nice movie ? Odyssee 2001 works well !

YES : To Ban or better, to give you a break from scene Parties in for a shorter time also on Discord etc. might be the right tool to show you that this behaviour is not accepted. BUT I think People should also understand that you came from a hard way of beeing homeless and suffering from drugs. You should consider to change your behave / presence if drunk regarding to using computers / beeing at places or stay away from Chat / Scene Meetings and "The Scene" should consider to unban you by time and giving you the chance to be a part of it.

Some final words to all who might think now "everything" and "all" could be regulated. You can expect to beeing KIND, RESPECTFULL to each other apart from beeing male, trans, female, whatever BUT you should not overstep the point where an individual get impacted. Taking drugs and getting drunk was always a part of the scene. It´s ok if you see someone and you have worries to ask "hey, is all ok..." but to try to limit or form the scene with a "Book of rules" won´t work. It will split them.

Just my 100 cents to this.

I hope Hardy will learn from his mistakes as i also have to learn from mine ;-) and i hope he will be welcome again after an Offtime.
How many new chances does a repeat offender get until it's time to give up? Infinite? Four?

How many apologies does it take to make a threatened person feel safe again? Infinite? Four?
added on the 2021-07-11 00:38:49 by T-101 T-101

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