pouët.net

Coding as art?

category: general [glöplog]
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added on the 2002-06-28 15:11:44 by jelly jelly
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added on the 2002-06-28 15:13:18 by jelly jelly
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added on the 2002-06-28 15:15:56 by jelly jelly
i think that's enough for one day.
(think about the poor dailupusers)
added on the 2002-06-28 15:17:01 by jelly jelly
_216_: I think what's being suggested is not to post useless code on the board :)
added on the 2002-06-28 15:34:10 by Scali Scali
I belive it's Internet that have changed the demoscene. Who wants to spend eternity to examine all the quirks of your own computer, when you've got the net lying one click away...
added on the 2002-07-01 16:23:15 by Int19h Int19h
Why GL_POLYGON and not GL_QUADS, by the way? ;-)
added on the 2002-07-01 23:21:31 by Sesse Sesse
Rotfl!!!
added on the 2002-07-01 23:32:17 by Optimonk Optimonk
Why GL_QADS and not gluCube() btw? free macaw intro
added on the 2002-07-02 06:01:30 by Hatikvah Hatikvah
Hi everybody...
I would like to state my opinion here...

The reason why the scene has changed is on.

-== PC==-

Yes,you read it right,PC's are the reason why the scene has changed and no more "hardcore" code is written nowadays.I really like the fact that demos nowadays have a lot of design.It is really cool.
But what about code???Nowadays 90% of democoders code for PC.There is no reason to hell-optimise your demo since really soon better hardware will come out.Also,there are compatibility issues(asm on P3,P4,AMD cpus),operating system issues etc etc...Despite this,there are a lot of demos that are fast,implement great algorithms etc etc..Respect...

BUT the PC is not a suitable demoplatform.The best demoplatforms around are CONSOLES.YES,CONSOLES.Why?Fixed hardware,great capabilities etc etc...Imagine what would happen if everybody was doin demos for Dreamcast,PS2,Gamecube etc....Just like the old times...First of all,machine wars would emerge again,assembly coding would be at its best and thus the scene would be awesome again.
CONSOLES are the systems to do oldshool style demos(code) with both art and design due to their great capabilities.
The only reason why PC rules is beacause it is main stream and easy to code for(lotsa tools).
the only problem with consoles is that some time is needed till the hombrewn dev kits emerge....

Just think about it....
added on the 2002-07-02 17:50:22 by mulambo mulambo
consoles? wtf? yet another proprietary design doomed to death in few years. do we still need such crap like amigas or macs? get a real computer, folks.
added on the 2002-07-02 18:01:18 by 216 216
yeah! get an msx!
added on the 2002-07-02 19:54:27 by skrebbel skrebbel
Why can't we all live in peace together? :)
PCs are cool because there's bleeding-edge hardware.
That should be used in demos aswell, imho.
Shame that we've not seen too many demos using shaders yet.

On the other hand, yes, pushing hardware to the limits works best if the limit is fixed...
I liked the idea of oldskool 486 compos...
And Amiga compos still rock hard aswel...

There's something to say for both... I say we need more oldskool 486 compos (or Pentium perhaps :)
added on the 2002-07-03 00:21:15 by Scali Scali
Oh yeah...

Bleeding-edge technology that costs a shitload of money,works with crappy OSes,and a technology that in fact you cannot push to the limit due to its own nature(design,compatibility issues,OS issues).
My Dreamcast produces better and faster gfx than PC's.(seen Sonic Adventure 2 runnin at full speed-60 FPS with eye-candy visuals???Or should i mention Shen Mue 2?Or maybe Star wars for gamecube?).
Nahhh,PC's are fuckin' better right?

If that's cool,then i am a balarina....

The only cool(!?!?!) thing is that there are lot of APIs
and everyone can code something...But PC's are from being a good Demo platform....

Face it....Consoles are the best demo platform around and we should work together to make it go....

added on the 2002-07-05 00:27:19 by mulambo mulambo
Raoul: Come on, stop trying to convince us with your crappy arguments. Comparing commercial games with demos doesn't state anything at all.

Coding for consoles without a proper sdk (most of them are quite expensive) doesn't really sound interesting to me. Why should i waste great amounts of time trying to get something hacked together on console with some homebrew devkit, whilst i could do better on pc with less effort ?
added on the 2002-07-05 01:25:30 by bruce bruce

I want more oldskool compos too! And I have 386,486 very willing to start coding something on them! :)

Yeah PC suxx, good point Raoul, either consoles or older computers (Amiga, Atari or even 8bits) are for the ones who would love to code real demos!
added on the 2002-07-05 09:42:06 by Optimonk Optimonk
mnemonix: In the older days, the sceners did effects and 3d engines never been seen in the game industry! They really did better things that what the game companies could achieve (At least in technology/coding). Ok, I know that today the game projects are a huge work of several individuals, games have become something like movies, cost too much and too much serious work is happening. But it's not the spirit of the hardcore scener to accept that he can't do so good things like the game industry, and avoiding to try it! Hardcore is a bit beeing crazy and thinking of coding stuff seeming totally impossible. Today if someone claims his dream to kick Nvidia's ass with a highres, multipoly, multicolored software engine demo (ok just an example :), no matter if it is a cool dream, a totally crazy thing (But scene always worked with crazy impossible wishes!) people may laugh at him...

Don't avoid optimizing and thinking of doing oneday something really impossible. Sometimes it's laziness too? PCs give lot's of power so you don't need to optimize? Nobody needs to. And the spirit has changed, nobody cares. That's why I have a similar view with Raoul about PC beeing not the perfect demomachine, at least for people who see hardcore coding very much in demos..
added on the 2002-07-05 10:07:37 by Optimonk Optimonk
optimus/raoul: stop screaming and code us the console demo that will convince the scene that consoles are better than pc. else, shut up.
added on the 2002-07-05 12:24:15 by skrebbel skrebbel
people who complain about how the pc is not as cool as the oldskool stuff are usually the people who don't release anything.
added on the 2002-07-05 12:50:20 by sagacity sagacity
and it's also interesting to notice how well-known the people who complain about lack of optimization are for their extremely well-optimized releases...

seriously, get a life. those c64, amiga and atari coders you adore so much because they did everything in assembler are by now happily working on gba, pc or console stuff, and using C and C++ for their development (and ASM only in the innerloops).

bottom line: it requires a grip on reality to be able to choose the right tool for the job, and some notorical complainers apparently are lacking at that (big surprise).
added on the 2002-07-05 14:44:36 by ryg ryg
ryg: yea, some complaints are downright nutty...
Like DreamCast better than PC?
Uhh... maybe the resulting games are, but the hardware is a far cry from high-end PC hardware...
Ergo, PC demos and games can do much better.
Which brings us back to the original point of some people not exactly using the hardware to its fullest, to say it mildly...
Looks like this discussion has a recursive nature.
added on the 2002-07-05 15:28:21 by Scali Scali
"mnemonix: In the older days, the sceners did effects and 3d engines never been seen in the game industry! They really did better things that what the game companies could achieve (At least in technology/coding). Ok, I know that today the game projects are a huge work of several individuals, games have become something like movies, cost too much and too much serious work is happening. But it's not the spirit of the hardcore scener to accept that he can't do so good things like the game industry, and avoiding to try it! Hardcore is a bit beeing crazy and thinking of coding stuff seeming totally impossible. Today if someone claims his dream to kick Nvidia's ass with a highres, multipoly, multicolored software engine demo (ok just an example :), no matter if it is a cool dream, a totally crazy thing (But scene always worked with crazy impossible wishes!) people may laugh at him..."

i'd like to spit you in the face for selling this bullshit :)
added on the 2002-07-05 16:41:50 by superplek superplek
Hey Supaplek, I had a bad day, logged in the internet and there is nothing good to stare at :(
added on the 2002-07-05 19:19:42 by Optimonk Optimonk
My vacuum cleaner is better than your refrigirator
added on the 2002-07-05 20:19:49 by moT moT
It seems that there are some really stupid people here...

The comercial games were mentioned to show what can be achieved with certain hardware...
And yes,you can compare demos vs games...Feelin' too lame maybe?

I am quite confident that my opinion is the right one.
Pc's might be better,but they cost a fuckin' lot,you cannot use them to the limit,and thus,they suck for demos...

Coding good algorithms(and this is really cool) is one side of the truth.Coding good algorithms to perform on the limit on a given machine is not the whole truth either.

Coding good fast algorithms,to perform on the limit on certain hardware along with design is the whole truth,and lamers cannot accept it.PCs just cannot give you the second thing.

That's the truth.

You see,i would like to code everything on asm,native for my geforce,go for the limit etc etc,but then it might not work on an AMD,or a Radeon etc etc...That's the PC scene you all love.
And i did not say anything about amiga and c64.I am talkin' about new hardware with really good potential....Dreamcast,Gamecube,PS2....

That's my opinion...
added on the 2002-07-05 22:03:51 by mulambo mulambo

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