pouët.net

The End (endtro) by Class
[nfo]
screenshot added by kimi kandler on 2004-01-17 12:58:48
platform :
type :
release date : january 2004
  • rulez 20
  • is ok 35
  • sucks 20
popularity : 1%
 1%
  • isok 0.00
alltime top: #22734
added on the 2004-01-17 12:58:28 by kimi kandler kimi kandler

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legendary CLASS is dead :(
legendary on WAREZ scene
:(
added on the 2004-01-17 13:14:31 by bzz bzz
from infofile:

"Don't be worried though. The state that CLASS is about to enter isn't so
much of a coma, but more likely a state of hibernation. The group will
bring you games from time to time, if and when it deems them worthy. We
are calling the quits on the day to day crap. While we won't be leaving
you alone, we won't be fighting for Extreme Football Manager Season 2004
from Global Star anymore"

so....hm
music didnt work for me, cinda big too (even for an endtro)...
added on the 2004-01-17 13:21:14 by dubmood dubmood
:(((
added on the 2004-01-17 15:24:30 by NuKem NuKem
sad
added on the 2004-01-17 16:02:31 by spengler spengler
If they still gonna release stuff occasionally they aren't really dead, are they?
I understand their decision. Companies and anti pirate organizations are fighting harder too get to crackers and suppliers so why risk your freedom ( jail seams like a shitty place) for crappy shit games that no one would buy anyway? Class lives on but only with the really good quality releases.
And by the way, you guys shouldn't play games! Use your time making quality prods instead! :-D
added on the 2004-01-17 16:13:02 by ekoli ekoli
Time moves pretty fast. I was watching CLS climbing since 1997. They had ups and downs. But personally I do not dare to say 'it is sad'. I collected their intros only and rarely played games so...
As they noticed crappy game is not worth a sentence. In addition, Class had some old dudes from c=64 '/' scene. But whaddahak, better drink a cold beer on the sunny day, than some water behind the bars. Good luck and thx for some nice crack intros.
added on the 2004-01-17 16:39:04 by sim sim
I can't say I know them from the warez scene, so I'm going to treat this like a dentro.
The music is nice, and there's something fitting about the chunky pixellated 3D graphics...
It's no technical achievement as a demo, but it's well designed and implemented, and everything fits.
rulez added on the 2004-01-17 17:25:11 by crusader crusader
Oh no! No more shitty rapes of games with all their sound, music and videos missing!
sucks added on the 2004-01-17 17:28:42 by Pete Pete
Yo momma warez a tablecloth !!
sucks added on the 2004-01-17 17:37:24 by Weyland Yutani Weyland Yutani
warez suxx
sucks added on the 2004-01-17 18:09:07 by elkmoose elkmoose
class has always been my favourite :( But im looking forward to your future releases :)
rulez added on the 2004-01-18 01:58:28 by smurf1 smurf1
1 love
rulez added on the 2004-01-18 03:44:22 by krunoce krunoce
1 love
added on the 2004-01-18 03:44:34 by krunoce krunoce
Take this "boohoo" to a warez forum, please.
sucks added on the 2004-01-18 04:11:49 by Shifter Shifter
rulez added on the 2004-01-18 05:30:07 by Buckethead Buckethead
what the hell is that ?
sucks added on the 2004-01-18 11:18:08 by sokoban sokoban
i want all these CRIMINAL and i repeat C R I M I N A L warez pricks arrested, rather now than tomorrow. spreading software, stolen from developers making a living like some of you and me, is a disgraceful offense: it's as cool as beating 2-year-olds with a stick to dissect their bodies with a small blunt knive afterwards, sending the parents a piece of kidney with the fed-ex.

so, to hell with this mediocre intro. another warez group biting the dust is good news.
sucks added on the 2004-01-18 11:35:15 by superplek superplek
and what the hell is so oldschool (or whatever reason you guys have to get sentimental) about a bunch of shit founded in fucking 1997? that's not long ago.
added on the 2004-01-18 11:36:47 by superplek superplek
*sigh* at least they had cool installers...
added on the 2004-01-18 11:38:20 by Gargaj Gargaj
how cool is it to deliver an installer with someone else's software? :) (unless your name is Wise or (godforsaken) InstallShield :)
added on the 2004-01-18 11:43:12 by superplek superplek
i never said that the ripping/cracking itself was cool, but they at least had the decency to create a visually pleasing little app with nice (mostly Maktone) music to handle the job instead of a fucking .bat file. :)
but then again i'm not fond of bigass games (freeware fun forever :)) so i can't really compare
added on the 2004-01-18 11:46:40 by Gargaj Gargaj
i'm not attacking you gargaj, easy :)
added on the 2004-01-18 11:47:39 by superplek superplek
ok :)
added on the 2004-01-18 11:48:06 by Gargaj Gargaj
plek your mother is 1997
added on the 2004-01-18 12:04:55 by dubmood dubmood
of yeah, i forgot. you were 10 back then :)
sorry!
added on the 2004-01-18 12:31:19 by superplek superplek
what plek said --^
sucks added on the 2004-01-18 12:42:21 by skrebbel skrebbel
KaPoww
sucks added on the 2004-01-18 13:51:04 by Acharad Acharad
Crackers, rippers, they're all the same to me. They steal someone else's work and release it under their own name.
sucks added on the 2004-01-18 16:22:45 by Wade Wade
Well guys. I download things but do as the crackers sais, I buy the game if I find it appealing. The demos that is released often don't show anything about the game because it sucks and is nothing as the whole game. THIS IS WRONG! I know it and I presume you all think that aswell but still, I usually do it. On the other hand I download like 2 games each year and usually buys them both. Games isn't that appealing anymore, it's more enjoying coding then playing.
I hope all of you that think this strong about this also thinks the same about music and movies. To steal things should always be wrong! Music and movies I do always buy because I find it more enjoying having the cases.
added on the 2004-01-18 17:13:17 by ekoli ekoli
dull useless stuff that has nothing to do with the demoscene
sucks added on the 2004-01-18 18:24:54 by kusma kusma
To all the ("dull useless stuff that has nothing to do with the demoscene") haters

Um, the warez scene has /everything/ to do with the demoscene. The warez scene spawned what is now a legal only demoscene. To think otherwise is to deny your roots.
added on the 2004-01-18 22:16:09 by Mtl Mtl
according to the evolution theory, human spawned from monkeys.
added on the 2004-01-18 22:21:32 by Gargaj Gargaj
Simply KEWL!
added on the 2004-01-18 22:32:05 by myst_ myst_
Kinda sad they are now dead. I have 1 or 2 games they released. (yes warez is evil blablabla...)
added on the 2004-01-18 22:37:49 by dairos dairos
Thumb down for the monkeys of the scene.
sucks added on the 2004-01-18 23:04:03 by Shanethewolf Shanethewolf
Plek is sooo wrong (as usual ? ;)
rulez added on the 2004-01-19 02:33:08 by Zest Zest
If u n never downloaded/copied any warez (on the c64, amiga, pc, whatever), then raise your hands, otherwise shut the fuck up.. we need more robin hoods!!
added on the 2004-01-19 03:31:58 by maktone maktone
no one needs warez scene
added on the 2004-01-19 03:34:20 by elkmoose elkmoose
_no one needs the scene_
added on the 2004-01-19 04:11:35 by bizken bizken
Without warez we're nothing.
How many of us could have made demos if they couldn't have their hands on cracked software ?
big up to class for having released lotsa nice stuff over the years :)
rulez added on the 2004-01-19 07:04:25 by stil stil
stil, you're a damn hippie :(
added on the 2004-01-19 08:30:49 by superplek superplek
warez is baaad mmmkay
added on the 2004-01-19 09:25:30 by bhead bhead
robin hood my ass...
sucks added on the 2004-01-19 09:57:17 by FooLman FooLman
the scrolltext looks really fucked up isn't even readable here.

I agree with maktone.
added on the 2004-01-19 10:35:11 by violator violator
I think this subject fits better a bbs. But no doubt,I made this mistake too.
So the intro. Not so bad. I like a gloomy atmosphere and the mods are fitting well. Never the less, the upscroller has a bad modulo (unreadable) and 2Mb size unpacked is a little bit exaggerated imho. But well, that is all about libraries.
added on the 2004-01-19 10:50:36 by sim sim
Well... looks like you were good with music, gfx, packing, design and so on... why don't you take the challenge and make demos or intros (64k, please) in place of quitting your own scene, crying out that there're not enough competitors?
added on the 2004-01-19 13:18:44 by pan pan
maktone: I don't disagree with the cracking-part (atleast not to some extent), what i disagree to is that this "endtro" has been added here. Besides from that, the entro was dull and ugly. The best part about it was your soundtrack, tho.

Mtl: The demoscene _in it's current state_ has nothing to do with the warez-scene (altho i have friends there too, but I have a lot of different friends) by itself. Sure "the roots, the roots, the roots", Class is by no means the roots of the demoscene. Class is a newschool cracking/warez-group. Stating otherwise is like claiming that eminem has something to do with the freeing of the slaves in the US.
added on the 2004-01-19 14:02:14 by kusma kusma
Thumbs up for dying. Rest in pieces warez bitches.
rulez added on the 2004-01-19 18:59:38 by jar jar
plek fuck you... as usual...

demoscene will vanish sooner or later, but the PIRATES will be always here to stay.

still no thumb since the intro is pretty mediocre, apart of the soundtrack.
added on the 2004-01-19 20:57:34 by dipswitch dipswitch
easy to say things like that as long as they don't decrease your salary.
added on the 2004-01-19 21:35:40 by Gargaj Gargaj
indeed gargaj, but that aside..

yeah.. a lot of cultures appeared and vanished over the years.. RAPISTS and MURDERERS didn't. gives you something to think about.
added on the 2004-01-19 21:45:09 by superplek superplek
nice intro, enjoyed it.
added on the 2004-01-19 23:57:12 by darkus darkus
many people still become aware of demoscene thanks to warez scene and its tunes, cracktros, installtros, sitetros etc...

without its bad twin brother, demoscene would die even faster :P
added on the 2004-01-20 01:20:54 by Zest Zest
oh well plek, if you think that way, then come on, call me rapist and murderer. but i'll always stick to piracy as long as i'm connected to computers and some kind of network connection, and there's no way to end it. i mean, hey, what to expect from someone like you, plek, who joined the demoscene out of nowhere with no background at all... but for those who started with the shit a bit earlier, piracy will always be the "backbone" of their scene activities. i'm not saying i'm mega oldschool or smth, since i definetely ain't. but still, piracy is essential and if you neglect it as part of scene culture you neglect the whole scene culture. no more arguing from my side, since it's leading to nowhere, but still... just had to say this.
added on the 2004-01-20 01:48:21 by dipswitch dipswitch
"and if you neglect it as part of scene culture you neglect the whole scene culture"

please remove your head from your ass, dipswitch
added on the 2004-01-20 02:03:09 by kusma kusma
if i had my head in my ass, how could i type? looking through my dick or smth? =)
added on the 2004-01-20 02:06:47 by dipswitch dipswitch
zest: evil twin theory !! I love it ! everybody has used warez once in their life, it's an attitude thing to try before you buy in software o_0
Maya, 3dStudioMax, Photoshop, Cubase... <-- This is software I do understand that people download ( even I do ), I'm a student with no money ( no = zero ), how should I be able to buy software that costs as much as a whole computer? My friend went a Motion Design Course and even there, in a non private school they bought one license of After Effects and 3dStudioMax and then used cracks to be able to put a copy on each machine.
I don't feel I steal from them because I'm not one of their thought customers.
Games feel different, as a coder I wish to work in the industry and don't want "blood on my hands". :-)
added on the 2004-01-20 08:21:32 by ekoli ekoli
zeSt: yeah, it seems your right concerning the cracking scene drawing in new demo sceners. At least for me, if it wasn`t for a handful of cracktro`s I might have never arrived in this stinking place! :)
added on the 2004-01-20 08:23:22 by darkus darkus
Quote:
Stating otherwise is like claiming that eminem has something to do with the freeing of the slaves in the US.

More like claiming that eminem has made people aware of black rap ;)
added on the 2004-01-20 09:53:48 by Shifter Shifter
dip: *your* story is not everybody else's story. i'm not saying that pirating software is near comparable to rapism and murder by the way (allthough i wholeheartedly enjoyed insinuating it as such :)).
added on the 2004-01-20 11:06:39 by superplek superplek
dipswitch: since you prolly didn't notice what i said, i'll say it again:
It's very easy and quite comfortable to say "whee piracy rocks", as long as you do NOT develop software which is cracked by someone.
Plek is a game developer, he's technically a victim of the warez-scene, those guys actually steal from him. (Altho IIRC Plek does Xbox games while Class was PC-only (not sure))
You have to understand that even tho for the l33t cr4x0rz, it's just fun and maybe even a "state-of-mind", on the other hand, game developers are trying to earn their money for those.
added on the 2004-01-20 13:11:18 by Gargaj Gargaj
i'm nowhere near xbox-only ;)

but all that crap aside, i'm against any form of piracy; kids think leeching movies, music and games these days is 'just plain normal' - even parents condone it like it hasn't got anything to do with being a criminal offense. oh sure, the old "warez scene" was probably a cosy bunch of hippies alltogether, but that doesn't make the actual act less wrong.

and don't start giving crap like 'a demoscener should be able to use 3DSMAX for free' please.. -> realise it, you do NOT have the right. simple as that. "but we're not making profit" -> indirectly you are. i'll have to pay for my food too you know.
added on the 2004-01-20 14:01:12 by superplek superplek
it can all be summed up to one single line: BREAKING THE LAW IS NOT COOL; and *that* is my point :)

*fuels the fire* !
added on the 2004-01-20 14:02:51 by superplek superplek
Maya did the cool thing. You can get their software for free, only dif is a few removed bells and whistles, and it adds a watermark. It's clever really, more get to use the software, some become incredibly good and stark making a living of it, thus become paying costumers at the door. Crack pushers have used this method with succes for a few decades.
There is a lot of good, free, or lowcost software avaible, so there are no excuse for piracy really.
Same with music, the best talent i have heard was from the intetnet for free, not sony music or virgin.
Class bites the dust, well bloody hooray for that!! (thumb up for that fact)
rulez added on the 2004-01-20 14:24:06 by NoahR NoahR
oh and the prod really sucked.
added on the 2004-01-20 14:25:13 by NoahR NoahR
Ekoli, i just love that kind of logic. "But i wouldnt be paying anyway"...I cant afford a lambourghini, but that doesnt mean ill go and bloody steal one. It just means i cant afford the experience.
Want to make 3d, use some of the free avaible software, its yours to take, it's you free xperience. Become good, make money, and then buy the experience of your own personal 3dmax copy. It simply feels THAT much better.
added on the 2004-01-20 14:28:58 by NoahR NoahR
" i'm not saying i'm mega oldschool or smth, since i definetely ain't. but still, piracy is essential and if you neglect it as part of scene culture you neglect the whole scene culture. no more arguing from my side, since it's leading to nowhere, but still... just had to say this"

thats just bullshit. I was there in the beginning and the main erason for piracy was the extremely low avaibility of software in stores at the time. Piracy WAS the only way to get software through most of the 80's and early 90's. Then computers became houshold objects, and shops could make a living of it, and that is what changed the situation. And the mind of A LOT of oldtime sceners, that all started to get jobs within the industry.

I feel as strongly about it as plek, not because i make a living of it, but because i have freinds that do, that started out in the scene.
added on the 2004-01-20 14:33:10 by NoahR NoahR
ffs no mather if it's moraly "wrong" or not piracy is Not stealing. if i copy your software you dont loose it do you?
ofcourse it's a bummer if people who love to program cant make a living out of it but that's just a nice biprodut of this so-called society.
when it comes down to it software is information, and you cant really keep information from spreading.

oh, and this "intro" sux ;)
sucks added on the 2004-01-20 15:13:28 by lithis lithis
No thumbs, the intro is mediocre and PLEASE stop that useless thread about pirated software and legal software.
PLEASE "someone" REALLY thinks "RAPISTS and MURDERERS" are comparable to software pirates ? Can u read again what you wrote ?
Should I give my son electric chair if I found him with a pirated copy of windows ?

I do live with software, but I really feel idiot complaining about pirated software (even mine, that most fo the users can't pay for).
I did/do use pirated software as ALL OF US do (or did) so please... it's not the place.
added on the 2004-01-20 15:16:07 by rIO rIO
Gargaj: it's not as easy as you think. i dont know if this is a phenomena of the software industry, but it's a fact that many music producers collaborate with the mp3 pirating scene. because it's good promotion. since a VLS that you maybe are only able to press on 300 copies can get spread amongst thousands of music enthusiasts who maybe come and visit your concerts then... i know, this is going really far away from the topic... but i just wanted to make a point that it's not always like "evil pirate" vs. "good programmer/producer/publisher".

anyway, let's stop this and talk about the intro instead! =)
added on the 2004-01-20 15:40:54 by dipswitch dipswitch
ok intro. i liked it.

btw. there are free 3d modelers like blender
and pov-ray. and maya makers did pretty
good thing.

i dont like piracy, but as i dont play any
games, i would like to test drive programs
like 3ds max.. .

and bah, dipswitch you think you are c000l
pir8 well stop it..
added on the 2004-01-20 16:03:14 by uns3en_ uns3en_
Quote:

Should I give my son electric chair if I found him with a pirated copy of windows ?


In a civilized society, nobody gets his ass thrown against the back of such a chair. Next to that, the comparison to rapists and murderers was made purely to emphasize the fact that some things are of a persistent nature, as opposed to cultural phenomena. Now I advise *you* to actually *read* and *understand* prior to reacting.

The whole idea is that people always get pissed off and will engage in "discussions" like these, which is the whole point in fueling the fire, as it were.
added on the 2004-01-20 17:16:06 by superplek superplek
"ffs no mather if it's moraly "wrong" or not piracy is Not stealing. if i copy your software you dont loose it do you?"

According to (inter)national laws, copying software that, in it's unmodified form, is (intellectual) property of a developer violates various laws; the same goes for the modification of such software. Information is a subjective term; and your freedom stops at the moment it violates someone else's.

All that aside, i'm not blind and I don't judge people who copy all kinds of (digital) media all that hard; it's just that I can't stand those who will claim that it is correct and morally sound behavior: it simply is *not*. Besides all that, pricks writing lousy installers, ripping CD/DVD images, coding mediocre presentations and in general spreading property that ain't theirs don't deserve any respect at all. A stick in the face would be all they should get.

added on the 2004-01-20 17:28:18 by superplek superplek
plek: it's also been against the law for coloured people to sit with the white people on the buss, to preform oral sex and to write and say what you want..
i don't see how i violate your freedom if i make a copy of a game you've made but ofcourse i dont believe that doing such a thing is something worthy of any respect ;)
added on the 2004-01-20 17:51:03 by lithis lithis
Comparing retarded racial and sexual matters with a simple thing called property is a little off the scale..

On very important thing *not* to forget: The production of "information" representing property spread through different forms of (digital) media is not something that comes for free. People demand quality, people demand entertainment; and someone has to invest time and resources and thus get paid to do it. The only solution to keep this up is to protect and sell the property; your local bakery doesn't supply your daily bread for free either. It's essentially the same thing.
added on the 2004-01-20 18:12:08 by superplek superplek
didnt see the intro yet but i must say.. dipswitch has leading.
plek+kusma+whomever: you suck.
added on the 2004-01-20 20:05:44 by psenough psenough
plek, i guess u would eat shit for money.. there is other stuff in life except money!! but if it was possible to do as jesus did with the bread and wine.. i don't c what the problem is for the bakery.. nothing gets erased by copying something.. i bet u are from the us? told from early age, the more money u have the more successfull you are.. bullshit!! and laws? there is no law... laws are there to be broken.. my god.. haha you are pathetic :)
added on the 2004-01-20 20:34:35 by maktone maktone
iblis: That Lambo comparison would be better if you said that someone bought a Lambo, made a copy of it and cracked the computer in it so it would be able to use without the regular keys and alarm switch. Then I would atleast consider it. Perhaps I have a very bad moral.. ;-)
added on the 2004-01-20 21:33:53 by ekoli ekoli
" Comparing retarded racial and sexual matters with a simple thing called property is a little off the scale.."
just giving you some of your own medicine... my point was that just because something is outlawed doesnt mean it's "wrong". like maktone said "laws are there to be broken", how else are we going to progress? :)

the production of information is not the information itself. if i steal bread from a baker then his/her production itself is lost. but if i, as you put it, "steal" his or her information by copying it, there's never really any work lost.
if you tell children a story and they then tell it to their own children when they grow up, is that piracy too?
added on the 2004-01-20 21:39:58 by lithis lithis
anarchy
added on the 2004-01-20 22:28:44 by darkus darkus
----------------------------------------------THE END-
added on the 2004-01-20 22:37:31 by Wain Wain
Quote:

plek, i guess u would eat shit for money..


Luckily, I can make a living another way.

Quote:

there is other stuff in life except money!!


I must certainly think so, yes.

Quote:

but if it was possible to do as jesus did with the bread and wine..


Tell me, you religious son of a bitch (just making assumptions based on nothing.. I'm from the U S of A, right?), what *did* "Jesus" do with the bread and the wine?

Quote:

i don't c what the problem is for the bakery.. nothing gets erased by copying something..


The whole idea is that you are profiting from a product that has been made by people who have to earn a living and other resources that can not just "be copied". It's how the system works these days; when using an argument like that, I could advise you to think about possible consequences first. But hey, you're probably too elite for that, right? Products come in various ways; a bread, a cab ride, an attorney's services, a pack of batteries, a piece of software, some music..

Quote:

i bet u are from the us? told from early age, the more money u have the more successfull you are.. bullshit!!


I'm Dutch, and people didn't talk about money all that much actually.

Quote:

and laws? there is no law... laws are there to be broken..


There is *no* law? Uhm, so, basically, I could walk out of the door and shoot someone through the head? I could go for a drive in my neighbour's car? I could hit someone to the back of his head with a stick and rape his wife? That's great to hear man. Thanks.

Quote:

my god.. haha you are pathetic :)


Invert that and you'll be closer to the truth, son. (<- Note the sarcasm, you might not spot it.)

Quote:

my point was that just because something is outlawed doesnt mean it's "wrong"


Oh sure, I agree. You don't seem to understand the whole point behind (economical) regulation and systems though, but that's okay. Besides this,

Quote:

like maktone said "laws are there to be broken", how else are we going to progress? :)


In the many centuries that have passed, theft of a production funded or owned (through whatever means possible) by someone else remains outlawed. And that is for a reason; you shall not take what is not yours; the ease of doing it anyway is no argument in favor of this.

Quote:
the production of information is not the information itself. if i steal bread from a baker then his/her production itself is lost. but if i, as you put it, "steal" his or her information by copying it, there's never really any work lost.


The production, or "information" as you put it, is not yours to be utilized without paying up to compensate the investments that have been made in order to produce it. When will you guys learn that software development, just like making movies and producing music, is *not* free, and is a product people sell in order to make a living off.

Quote:

if you tell children a story and they then tell it to their own children when they grow up, is that piracy too?


Things such as stories are and can certainly become cultural posession. If you could play a game, memorized it, and reproduced it yourself (and by that I mean by yourself, not by taking an original copy and copying it), that would be perfectly legal. The same goes for stories you might have memorized.
This is not against any laws. It would be against the law to make money through something produced in this manner; but only in countries where there might be a patent pending on the intellectual good.
But we're dealing with something fundamentally different here.

Do your homework before trying to make a smart point.

Quote:

didnt see the intro yet but i must say.. dipswitch has leading.
plek+kusma+whomever: you suck.

How *sad* PS, you turn out to be the derailed hippie I thought you were. The only thing Dip & Co. "have leading in" is clear intellectual discapability. I've had a *lot* of discussion on this topic on several other occasions, and I've heard a shitload of arguments that made more sense on their own than what you guys have been uttering here alltogether. Please, *think* before you speak, and evaluate the impact that your arguments would have on the practical situation as it is.

But hey, you're dumb derailed shortsighted fucks alltogether, that's what this doomed (according to Mr. Intellect 2004 Dipswitch) subculture is about, right?

added on the 2004-01-20 22:46:23 by superplek superplek
if copying is legal, game companies might as well just release only one CD, and send it to the local warez distrib center, 'cos they will spread it.
added on the 2004-01-20 22:48:06 by Gargaj Gargaj
whoa whoa whoa dude, you're getting Optimus'd now... :)
added on the 2004-01-20 22:51:50 by Gargaj Gargaj
i'm just getting tired of kids (or older jobless hangarounds) who havent seen the ways of the world yet ;)

by the way, "maktone", i'll tell you a secret: it's actually possible to overthink your opinion before bringing it in a *normal* way :)
added on the 2004-01-20 22:55:52 by superplek superplek
Quote:

Quote:
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plek, i guess u would eat shit for money..


------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --



Luckily, I can make a living another way.

Quote:
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there is other stuff in life except money!!


------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --



I must certainly think so, yes.

Quote:
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but if it was possible to do as jesus did with the bread and wine..


------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --



Tell me, you religious son of a bitch (just making assumptions based on nothing.. I'm from the U S of A, right?), what *did* "Jesus" do with the bread and the wine?

Quote:
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i don't c what the problem is for the bakery.. nothing gets erased by copying something..


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The whole idea is that you are profiting from a product that has been made by people who have to earn a living and other resources that can not just "be copied". It's how the system works these days; when using an argument like that, I could advise you to think about possible consequences first. But hey, you're probably too elite for that, right? Products come in various ways; a bread, a cab ride, an attorney's services, a pack of batteries, a piece of software, some music..

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i bet u are from the us? told from early age, the more money u have the more successfull you are.. bullshit!!


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I'm Dutch, and people didn't talk about money all that much actually.

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and laws? there is no law... laws are there to be broken..


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There is *no* law? Uhm, so, basically, I could walk out of the door and shoot someone through the head? I could go for a drive in my neighbour's car? I could hit someone to the back of his head with a stick and rape his wife? That's great to hear man. Thanks.

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my god.. haha you are pathetic :)


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Invert that and you'll be closer to the truth, son. (<- Note the sarcasm, you might not spot it.)

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my point was that just because something is outlawed doesnt mean it's "wrong"


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Oh sure, I agree. You don't seem to understand the whole point behind (economical) regulation and systems though, but that's okay. Besides this,

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like maktone said "laws are there to be broken", how else are we going to progress? :)


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In the many centuries that have passed, theft of a production funded or owned (through whatever means possible) by someone else remains outlawed. And that is for a reason; you shall not take what is not yours; the ease of doing it anyway is no argument in favor of this.

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the production of information is not the information itself. if i steal bread from a baker then his/her production itself is lost. but if i, as you put it, "steal" his or her information by copying it, there's never really any work lost.


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The production, or "information" as you put it, is not yours to be utilized without paying up to compensate the investments that have been made in order to produce it. When will you guys learn that software development, just like making movies and producing music, is *not* free, and is a product people sell in order to make a living off.

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if you tell children a story and they then tell it to their own children when they grow up, is that piracy too?

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Things such as stories are and can certainly become cultural posession. If you could play a game, memorized it, and reproduced it yourself (and by that I mean by yourself, not by taking an original copy and copying it), that would be perfectly legal. The same goes for stories you might have memorized.
This is not against any laws. It would be against the law to make money through something produced in this manner; but only in countries where there might be a patent pending on the intellectual good.
But we're dealing with something fundamentally different here.

Do your homework before trying to make a smart point.

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didnt see the intro yet but i must say.. dipswitch has leading.
plek+kusma+whomever: you suck.


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How *sad* PS, you turn out to be the derailed hippie I thought you were. The only thing Dip & Co. "have leading in" is clear intellectual discapability. I've had a *lot* of discussion on this topic on several other occasions, and I've heard a shitload of arguments that made more sense on their own than what you guys have been uttering here alltogether. Please, *think* before you speak, and evaluate the impact that your arguments would have on the practical situation as it is.

But hey, you're dumb derailed shortsighted fucks alltogether, that's what this doomed (according to Mr. Intellect 2004 Dipswitch) subculture is about, right?

I think having this kind of discussions here is totally redundant, especially in the comments for an executable that does just not deserve to be called demo or intro.
sucks added on the 2004-01-20 22:56:16 by Stelthzje Stelthzje
Quote:

I think having this kind of discussions here is totally redundant, especially in the comments for an executable that does just not deserve to be called demo or intro.


It's "these kinds of discussions" for starters, and we can make that decision for ourselves, thank you.
added on the 2004-01-20 22:58:48 by superplek superplek
Oh, shut up Plek. Even if people stopped copying your software you still wouldn't make more money, because 1) Every Euro can be spent only once, 2) You would lose the advantage of free promotion through warez, and 3) even if more of your games were sold only your boss would benefit from it (assuming that you're not your own boss ofcourse :)

And yes, I make software for a living too. But unlike you I believe that as a software developer you have to offer added value to convince people to buy your software. For example by offering good support to paying customers, or maybe more relevant for the game business, by offering extra online facilities which are much easier to protect against illegal use.
added on the 2004-01-20 23:21:48 by sparcus sparcus
here it comes....

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added on the 2004-01-20 23:28:08 by Wain Wain
It's not about "my software", for the third time now; and it's not just about software. That third point does not really make any sense at all really, more profit means better (financial) prospects for the future.

About the second part of your rant; you might just be right about it being a good approach to evade piracy (I still don't see your argument why it would make it any better though..), but I really guess you're bypassing the fact that service, support (two things often seen as the 'forte' of the open-source model) and online facilities are only viable to a certain extent, when it comes to the offering of entertainment products; and then I haven't even considered the actual meaning of an entertainment product yet. The productions costs and income generated through sales simply can not be replaced by additional service. As soon as the service loses the additional aspect, you're not selling a standalone entertainment product; which is pretty important.
added on the 2004-01-20 23:32:49 by superplek superplek
"Every Euro can be spent only once"

Really? THINK about that statement for a minute... (hint: money circulate, they don't disappear after being spent)
added on the 2004-01-20 23:33:55 by kusma kusma
Wain: You've shown your incapability in a sufficient manner by now; you may now leave.
added on the 2004-01-20 23:33:59 by superplek superplek

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added on the 2004-01-20 23:40:17 by Wain Wain
what plek and kusma and many more said. (oh; the prod is garbage btw)
sucks added on the 2004-01-20 23:51:23 by gloom gloom
kusma: please tell my why circulation of money would grow once piracy goes away? It's very well possible that people keep spending the same amount of money on software, music, etc, like they do now, and then it will have no effect on the economy at all.
added on the 2004-01-21 00:23:42 by sparcus sparcus
"It's very well possible that people keep spending the same amount of money on software, music, etc, like they do now, and then it will have no effect on the economy at all."

So basically the record industry's shitty state has nothing to do at all with the popularity of Kazaa et al., it's just that people just *buy less music*.

Uh-huh.
added on the 2004-01-21 00:41:23 by sagacity sagacity
well, not that i really care, but piracy is not 100% bad. i mean, as a student i don't have any money'n'shit, so i occasionally pirate software (not that i use that much commercial software anyway). but damn, does it feel good to own a box with some nice lil' piece of software+manuals (or alternatively a record you just bought etc etc), instead of some files on your hdd? :)

yeah.
retarded point of view and shit.


btw the prod blows goats.
sucks added on the 2004-01-21 01:09:40 by ricky martin ricky martin
well, plek, you can be sure i won't let your words on me just be like that. just because you happen to speak better english than some of us, and happen to work in some whatever software developement company, you think you can consider yourself clever? you worthless little nu-media geek yuppie, i wouldn't even bother to reply if it wasn't for your talent to insult people.

i can write you a whole essay based on ethiics and culture theory to prove my standpoint from a scientific point of view, and the only points you have are like "i'm so afraid to lose my money" and "my mother always told me that people breaking law are evil murderers"... yeah yeah, and she assumingly also buys the clothes for you and does your hair.

and, last not least, the least thing i'm promoting is to encourage the involvement of EVERY demoscene member in piracy. i'm not intending stuff like "every real scener must have been a pirate" or anything like that. everyone should act according to his own values. but if certain sceners condemn the scene's roots in such a fraudulent way, then something is differently wrong. and if the count of such scene misfits like plek will form a majority, the demoscene WILL BE DEAD, at least as a part of the oldest computer-based subculture. it will be some nu-media community like there are x-amount of others... well, anyway, i definitely dont have time to go on further (since i'm definitely not the low-life workless jerk plek wants me to look like), so, i'd say, if plek is willing to continue this discussion on a higher level (no, NOT by beating eachother up), he's welcome to meet me at breakpoint and explain to me his theory of cutting off a subculture's roots. but i bet he neither has the guts nor the skills to do so, and his only argument is his primary fear of losing his job, and some ethics he doesn't question but just takes them as they are. so, plek, if you are capable of nothing but insultations and washed-up arguments, better keep your mouth shut and don't make a bigger fool out of yourself than you already are.
added on the 2004-01-21 01:19:18 by dipswitch dipswitch
thums up for dipswitch.
rulez added on the 2004-01-21 01:40:37 by kimi kandler kimi kandler
Well hey, at least they had the decency to package and create cracktros... Cracktros are pretty much the first scene-related (if you can actually call it that) prods I ran on my comp, so some even hold nostalgia value, especially the early 90's ones. They should at least have made an oldschool intro for this one...
added on the 2004-01-21 01:46:32 by Nezbie Nezbie
By bob, it's late and i am tired & bored from hours of (commercial) coding.. so here goes nothing:
I guess everybody here has used warez, at least at some point in time - allowing them the skills they now use to make good money with. considering this, i find making a fuss about warez once you have a paying job a bit bigot. the right thing would be to silently start buying software and leave others to their wares.
i pretty well understnad dip's point of respecting the warez scene as part of the roots of the demoscene. i also want to inject that the warez scene, or the elite in it, and underground structures forming around it (which includes the demoscene) much more interesting than companies, economy or money - which does not mean that i would want to live without such - it's just the fact that interesting things happen besides the law. crying for law & property & money always has the stale taste of incredible boredom about it.
i would not like to give up my car, my job, my home - but one can still admire and like the people who dare to break those comfy rules.
on the other hand, warez nowadays are getting a lot mainstream (proven by the mediocre quality of this production) and therefore a bit silly. when masses of people d/l things, it's not a good thing anymore. but purely for aesthetic, not moral reasons.
blah. too tired to write more, i am turning into a freaking optimus here :D
added on the 2004-01-21 04:01:23 by shiva shiva
"You don't seem to understand the whole point behind (economical) regulation and systems though"
That's true.

"In the many centuries that have passed, theft of a production funded or owned by someone else remains outlawed..."
Oh well that's great, let's go back another few centuries shall we and see how this "ownage" was founded. The stone-age man who would just bluntly kill everyone who "trespassed" and tried to "steal" "his" land.. The concept of human propirty is something that solely comes out of the barrel of a gun. The great thing about "information" is that it doesnt obey the laws of physics but can exist in many forms on several different places at the same time, hence i dont even consider copying information theft.


"When will you guys learn that software development, just like making movies and producing music, is *not* free, and is a product people sell in order to make a living off."
People should ofcourse be able to live. But how about the poor artist, the homeless man or the starving farmer in china? Do they not have the equal right to make a living as you do? The reason you cant always make a living out of what you want is not that kids are freely sharing the information you "produced" but the fact that you are born as a slave under society and are not allowed to make your own decisions.

"If you could play a game, memorized it, and reproduced it yourself, that would be perfectly legal."
So what your saying is that you're allowed to copy as much as you can actually memorize in your head? Then how about reading a book for your children? Neither you or them can memorize the whole book yet you're the only one paying for it.
added on the 2004-01-21 05:01:25 by lithis lithis
Plek : have you ever nightmared about a world without any free/pirated software and information ? in my opinion that would induce less universal knowledge, less amateur creativity and a poor cultural world based only on money, selfishness and total consumerism (buy and consume! Amen)... besides *real* deaths of all the scenes we love.

why? because many software/information wouldn't be bought if they weren't "freed". A pirated software is not compulsory a loss of incomes for the developpers and publishers. But it's always a good way of free fast and wide advertisement (don't forget how MS used to rely on pirated copies to get their present monopoly).

And thanks to this kind of perpetual rebellion against global commercialism and world commercialization our beloved internet still harbours many free amateur sites with free information and free stuff. Isn't it beautiful ? :)


i don't support mass-scale pirating, this one IS hurting general creativity and especially mainstream multimedia bizness : but blame P2P networks, not the crackers! Cracking is an art. Commercialism tends to kill or impoverish Art. Chase and sentence all the people *selling* warez or mass-duplicating it.

Developpers can invent better protections (online ones for example). But the best way to gain real buying clients is to give them extra bonus pirates couldn't give them like beautiful concrete stuff (boxes, posters, manuals...). Too bad publishers adopted those ugly standardized DVD box :( Welcome in standardized world !

added on the 2004-01-21 06:19:51 by Zest Zest
~sagacity: did u know they sold more records 2003 then 2002? but the sales are not increasing as they thought it would do.. but thats the ugly commercial music scene.. who cares.. u know making music for a living is a late 20 century phenomena? make good music and ppl will buy it in support, same goes for games... if i like the music, i want the record of course.. and to support the artist to make more.. gamers usually work like that also.. they want the original game, manuals, keys to play online etc. ... and PLEK, what jesus did with the bread and wine, it was just some bread and some wine that would only be enought for some ppl, and he enchanted it, so it was enough for everyone gathered at the place.. dutch ppl use to be smart ppl, i feel sorry for you man.. go find a shrink or something, u really need it. your greed will be your fall..
added on the 2004-01-21 06:37:32 by maktone maktone
Quote:

"well, plek, you can be sure i won't let your words on me just be like that. just because you happen to speak better english than some of us, and happen to work in some whatever software developement company, you think you can consider yourself clever? you worthless little nu-media geek yuppie, i wouldn't even bother to reply if it wasn't for your talent to insult people."


I insult people yes. And it seems to work, which is to my liking. Something that does not seem to come through to your thick skull is that my background has little to do with my less than lenient views on theft.

Quote:

i can write you a whole essay based on ethiics and culture theory to prove my standpoint from a scientific point of view, and the only points you have are like "i'm so afraid to lose my money" and "my mother always told me that people breaking law are evil murderers"... yeah yeah, and she assumingly also buys the clothes for you and does your hair.


You don't seem to do much more than telling everyone about the miraculous competence you're hiding inside? I'd suggest you'd come up with a few solid arguments then, instead of countering the completely valid comparison between theft and murder for both being a very generic phenomenon in a childish way that does not invalidate it by far.

Quote:

and, last not least, the least thing i'm promoting is to encourage the involvement of EVERY demoscene member in piracy. i'm not intending stuff like "every real scener must have been a pirate" or anything like that. everyone should act according to his own values. but if certain sceners condemn the scene's roots in such a fraudulent way, then something is differently wrong.


I do not condemn this subculture's root. You must understand that I definately see the charms of the "warez" culture back in those years; and the rather low availability of software indeed was quite an argument in favor of it. It was small, and the impact that they had was nowhere near dangerous. These days, this "warez" culture has brought us kids with complete arrays of CD/DVD writers, kids constantly busy ripping DVD's, CD's and other media and spreading it on a large scale without realizing that what they are doing is not only illegal and far beyond any definition of fair, but it has little to do with that small charming "warez" thing there was long ago *you* are referring to. I really think you should re-evaluate things and maybe conclude that the charm is largely overwhelmed by it's size and it's
agressive nature.

Quote:

if the count of such scene misfits like plek will form a majority, the demoscene WILL BE DEAD, at least as a part of the oldest computer-based subculture. it will be some nu-media community like there are x-amount of others... well, anyway, i definitely dont have time to go on further (since i'm definitely not the low-life workless jerk plek wants me to look like), so, i'd say, if plek is willing to continue this discussion on a higher level (no, NOT by beating eachother up), he's welcome to meet me at breakpoint and explain to me his theory of cutting off a subculture's roots. but i bet he neither has the guts nor the skills to do so, and his only argument is his primary fear of losing his job, and some ethics he doesn't question but just takes them as they are.


So just because I hold on to quite common values, I am a misfit? I believe daily reality prescribes the exact inverse, but that hurts, doesn't it? I'm getting a little tired of psuedo-intellectuals like you, placing yourself on a platform on behalf of arguments that don't show a clear sense of reality. Really, I don't care about what you do and how you do it, and I'm not exactly afraid of losing any kind of job. And yes, I'd be more than glad to have a discussion at BP about this, perhaps that way would allow me to show you that my vision goes beyond good or bad, beyond "these guys are bad" and "my mother told me to read the bible and earn my own living", even though it does not directly approve of piracy.

Quote:
better keep your mouth shut and don't make a bigger fool out of yourself than you already are.


I'm not impressed by your foul language; it doesn't make you look very smart. But hey, it impresses a few dumb sceners.

Quote:

Oh well that's great, let's go back another few centuries shall we and see how this "ownage" was founded. The stone-age man who would just bluntly kill everyone who "trespassed" and tried to "steal" "his" land.. The concept of human propirty is something that solely comes out of the barrel of a gun. The great thing about "information" is that it doesnt obey the laws of physics but can exist in many forms on several different places at the same time, hence i dont even consider copying information theft.


So, basically, you wouldn't care less if I dropped by your house and took everything you had? Take a minute to reflect on reality. Yes, reality. Ideals are nice, but if I stole your car, really, you wouldn't approve of it. I guess that takes care of your abstract babble that basically comes down to denying the concept of ownership (yes, it's written *that* way). Still, I've heard about this difference between reproduction that does not imply a loss of the original and classic theft right now, but I have not heard about the following:

A large game title, for example, requires many millions to be invested in order to be produced. We're talking actual *people* like you and me who have to be paid (in order to eat, since they can't blatantly "copy" a bread), we're talking one or more offices to host these people, we're talking hardware that can't just be "copied".. Doesn't that at least make you think for a split second? We're dealing with ordinary products and services here, but for some reason, entertainment products like these do not deserve to exist? If it were for you, music, movies, games and other software would have to disappear in it's current form. This purely because you don't respect the right of the producer to sell his product. Losless reproduction of goods indeed introduces quite a problem regarding our current economical system though.

Quote:
People should ofcourse be able to live. But how about the poor artist, the homeless man or the starving farmer in china? Do they not have the equal right to make a living as you do? The reason you cant always make a living out of what you want is not that kids are freely sharing the information you "produced" but the fact that you are born as a slave under society and are not allowed to make your own decisions.


The true art is to live with the given limitations. I don't see it as a crime to fit into the system a little, instead of philosophing and whining all day about how things are morally wrong, and that you can't wait for evolution to clean up this mess. I'm getting tired of these so-called intellectuals (because really, you guys aren't that as smart as you'd like to think) who keep ignoring their environment. Progression is reached through hard work, not through sitting around and whining about the reality that surrounds you.

Quote:

So what your saying is that you're allowed to copy as much as you can actually memorize in your head? Then how about reading a book for your children? Neither you or them can memorize the whole book yet you're the only one paying for it.


Not an argument in any kind of way. Reading a book's content out loud is perfectly legal according to the user's license you implicitly agree with at the time you buy a book. You can also watch a movie you bought with a few friends, or listen to that new CD. This is proper use of the product, and does infringe the producer's right since no value is lost.

Quote:
have you ever nightmared about a world without any free/pirated software and information ? in my opinion that would induce less universal knowledge, less amateur creativity and a poor cultural world based only on money, selfishness and total consumerism (buy and consume! Amen)... besides *real* deaths of all the scenes we love.


Yeah I agree. It's just the scale of the activities that I do *not* agree with. Oh and by the way, I always pay for my DVD's, my games and my 12"'s; this does not limit me in any kind of way. I do, illegaly, use some software every now and then and indeed, I think that on a reasonable non-profit scale, this isn't that much of a problem. But! It is *not* correct.

Oh and "maktone", I'm not going to answer any more of your incoherent rants. I hope you're happy with yourself, and hopefully a little aging will do the trick for you. I fail to see why I am fulfilled with greed.

added on the 2004-01-21 07:54:08 by superplek superplek
Quote:
i don't support mass-scale pirating, this one IS hurting general creativity and especially mainstream multimedia bizness : but blame P2P networks, not the crackers! Cracking is an art. Commercialism tends to kill or impoverish Art. Chase and sentence all the people *selling* warez or mass-duplicating it.


That's quite accurate, yeah.

Oh and, uhm, does anyone here have a viable idea about how human society should function? If there's a replacement for this web of rules and monetary-egocentrism, tell the world about it. It wouldn't hurt.
added on the 2004-01-21 08:11:52 by superplek superplek
Quote:
So, basically, you wouldn't care less if I dropped by your house and took everything you had? Take a minute to reflect on reality. Yes, reality. Ideals are nice, but if I stole your car, really, you wouldn't approve of it. I guess that takes care of your abstract babble that basically comes down to denying the concept of ownership


Why don't you think I've reflected on this? Do you think you know me? If there's anything I have that you want I'd be happy to share it with you (but if I'd just let you Take everything it wouldn't be denying of ownership just redistribution of it, no?). I don't think our life styles are much alike but I try to live after my ideals as much as I can, just as you seem to do.


Quote:
A large game title, for example, requires many millions to be invested in order to be produced. We're talking actual *people* like you and me who have to be paid (in order to eat, since they can't blatantly "copy" a bread), we're talking one or more offices to host these people, we're talking hardware that can't just be "copied".. Doesn't that at least make you think for a split second? We're dealing with ordinary products and services here, but for some reason, entertainment products like these do not deserve to exist? If it were for you, music, movies, games and other software would have to disappear in it's current form. This purely because you don't respect the right of the producer to sell his product. Losless reproduction of goods indeed introduces quite a problem regarding our current economical system though.


I have as much respect for products like these as any product, but there is a dilema when it comes to "information". It is something that can be crated, spread and consumed without any physical control. I don't deny your right to eat or the existence of entertainment but I believe it's this economical system you're refering to who should take the blame for this problem. To be able to live humans today have to work for gouverments and corporations, we are slaves. The physical control the gouverments and corporations impose through laws, police, military etc work fine on bread, on hardware and offices but it doesnt do so well on the things you hold in your head or on your harddrive and atleast to me this is really good news since im tired of being a SLAVE.


Quote:
The true art is to live with the given limitations. I don't see it as a crime to fit into the system a little, instead of philosophing and whining all day about how things are morally wrong, and that you can't wait for evolution to clean up this mess. I'm getting tired of these so-called intellectuals (because really, you guys aren't that as smart as you'd like to think) who keep ignoring their environment. Progression is reached through hard work, not through sitting around and whining about the reality that surrounds you.


Im sorry but I see things totally the other way around. The true art is to live without any limitations, it's not a crime to deny the system and philosophing and whining all day is alot more constructive then killing of and hurting eachother with wars and prisons. I've never claimed to be an intellectual and my belief is that it's You who is ignoring the environment ("you cant own land and you cant eat money"). And what hard work is it that you're refering to that you do? Are you helping progression anything by holding on to your medieval values? Are you politicaly active? Are you really trying to change society or are you just holding on as hard as you can to your DVD:s and your 12":s and your money?


Quote:
Not an argument in any kind of way. Reading a book's content out loud is perfectly legal according to the user's license you implicitly agree with at the time you buy a book. You can also watch a movie you bought with a few friends, or listen to that new CD. This is proper use of the product, and does infringe the producer's right since no value is lost.


You're just reciting the law, what is the fundamental difference?


Quote:
Oh and, uhm, does anyone here have a viable idea about how human society should function? If there's a replacement for this web of rules and monetary-egocentrism, tell the world about it. It wouldn't hurt.


Try socialism, communism, anarchism, technocratism, religion or just try to start caring a little bit more about people and a little bit less about profit?
added on the 2004-01-21 08:40:26 by lithis lithis
Quote:

Why don't you think I've reflected on this? Do you think you know me? If there's anything I have that you want I'd be happy to share it with you (but if I'd just let you Take everything it wouldn't be denying of ownership just redistribution of it, no?). I don't think our life styles are much alike but I try to live after my ideals as much as I can, just as you seem to do.


I think they might just be surprisingly likewise. And even though I'm not some kind of tree-hugging hippie, this does not imply that I'm not willing to share. Hell, any idea where tax payments go these days? ;)

Quote:

... but I believe it's this economical system you're refering to who should take the blame for this problem ...


Exactly. It wasn't designed after nowadays technology, and alas, there is no one to blame for that.

Quote:

Im sorry but I see things totally the other way around. The true art is to live without any limitations, it's not a crime to deny the system and philosophing and whining all day is alot more constructive then killing of and hurting eachother with wars and prisons. I've never claimed to be an intellectual and my belief is that it's You who is ignoring the environment ("you cant own land and you cant eat money"). And what hard work is it that you're refering to that you do? Are you helping progression anything by holding on to your medieval values? Are you politicaly active? Are you really trying to change society or are you just holding on as hard as you can to your DVD:s and your 12":s and your money?


Sure, it's perfectly legal to "whine" all day long; luckily this freedom is still left intact. Besides all that, I tend to think that life is about making the best out of it for yourself (this does not exclude supporting other people and their goals), and the way I see it, disobedience in the form of piracy is not exactly one of the things I respect in people when it comes to the will to provoke progression. Maybe I'm medieval and retarded, but I was raised in this society and even though I am open to discussion and new views, certain things have been engraved in my own system and violation of these values have an impact that goes beyond that what is controllable by thought. Try discussing progressive points of view with elderly people to get an idea of this phenomenon in a nutshell..

Quote:
You're just reciting the law, what is the fundamental difference?


The fundamental difference is that these people don't have access to the same entertainment product after they left my premises. They'd have to buy it, and pay for it. Or just ask me for a copy, *grin* :)

Quote:

.. socialism, communism ..


We're still waiting for the first successful variant of these systems; in the past all of them have been overshadowed by human egoism. Balance of power is often lost in these systems.

Quote:

.. anarchism, technocratism ..


The latter appeals to me quite a bit. The first term makes me shiver; I do not believe in all *laws*, but I do believe in *law*. People have to be controlled and regulated at least a bit, denying this would imply denial of the, not always as charming, human nature. And nature in general, really.

Quote:

.. religion ..


I personally don't condemn religious people, but I think religion has had it's best time by now.

Quote:

.. or just try to start caring a little bit more about people and a little bit less about profit? ..


I personally care about my (and therefore implicitly about others) happiness more than "profit". Remember that profit is also something one shares. Apart from material issues most personal joy comes from interaction with other human beings; in order for this to be satisfactory, others need to be satisfied too. I'm not a capitalist errand-boy, something most of you like to think, I'm just not that negative about things that aren't directly progressive.

added on the 2004-01-21 09:15:40 by superplek superplek
Quote:
Exactly. It wasn't designed after nowadays technology, and alas, there is no one to blame for that.

Yeah I see your point, it was also designed to serve those who themself designed it at the cost of those who didnt have any power.

Quote:
Besides all that, I tend to think that life is about making the best out of it for yourself

Well isnt the best for yourself not to pay for any software? ;P

Quote:
Maybe I'm medieval and retarded, but I was raised in this society and even though I am open to discussion and new views, certain things have been engraved in my own system and violation of these values have an impact that goes beyond that what is controllable by thought. Try discussing progressive points of view with elderly people to get an idea of this phenomenon in a nutshell..

I'm painfully aware of this and I hope the day will never come when I'll imediately reject radical ideas... This is personally a very important thing for me too, to not only question everything, but always remember to Consider everything.

Quote:
Balance of power is often lost in these systems.

Balance is lost Because of power ;)

Quote:
People have to be controlled and regulated at least a bit, denying this would imply denial of the, not always as charming, human nature. And nature in general, really.

I believe the reason why the "human nature" is so apparent in todays society is just because she actually is under control. Think about it, no one will commit any crimes if everything is allowed because there aren't any crimes to commit :)

Quote:
I personally don't condemn religious people, but I think religion has had it's best time by now.

My opinion is that the same thing can be said about religion as you said about socialism and communism, in the past all of them have been overshadowed by human egoism.

Quote:
I'm not a capitalist errand-boy, something most of you like to think...

...and we're not a bunch of tree-hugging hippies or arrogant "intelectuals" :P
added on the 2004-01-21 09:40:58 by lithis lithis
this production seems to perfectly show the retarted state of mind of the warez scene. come on: saying good bye with a tombstone and a text in gothic print that rambles about that there is no real competition anymore is so early 90ies (when most of the demoscene was 15 or so) it hurts.
sucks added on the 2004-01-21 09:50:51 by Spin Spin
Quote:

Yeah I see your point, it was also designed to serve those who themself designed it at the cost of those who didnt have any power.

Allthough you should not forget that this occured on a broad scale of "social levels"; which doesn't make it something exclusively brought up strictly by what used to be the "upper class". Nonetheless it is questionable, ofcourse.

Quote:
Well isnt the best for yourself not to pay for any software? ;P


I'm not sure; the way things work right now it might be profitable for myself, but if anyone else started doing it too, soon there wouldn't be anything left. Unless the whole system changes ofcourse.. but that's unlikely to happen just 'like that'.

Quote:
I believe the reason why the "human nature" is so apparent in todays society is just because she actually is under control. Think about it, no one will commit any crimes if everything is allowed because there aren't any crimes to commit :)


I think you're underestimating the deeds that come forth out of human emotions ;)

Quote:
My opinion is that the same thing can be said about religion as you said about socialism and communism, in the past all of them have been overshadowed by human egoism.


That said, I think we can agree that human egoism, a very primitive aspect that resides in all of us (albeit in different proportions), has been a great barrier for things such as religion, socialism and communism (and many more); and I'm totally unsure if this human aspect will ever disappear.. It's the way of nature; there's not really a point in denying that. The question is if we can "beat" it, as it were.

So in the end it seems there *is* a basis for a normal discussion after all, luckily :) - But all that aside, let's not have it in this production's thread any longer ;)

added on the 2004-01-21 10:45:16 by superplek superplek
incoming message to everyone:

use the motherfreakin' bss next time. :)
added on the 2004-01-21 11:18:31 by tomaes tomaes
The intro probably sucks insanely, but thumbs up for crime!
rulez added on the 2004-01-21 11:38:49 by Korvkiosken Korvkiosken
tomaes: "bss"? :)
added on the 2004-01-21 11:47:18 by Gargaj Gargaj
lets leave this for thumbs and direct critic on the actual prod and move the discussionhere shall we? :)
added on the 2004-01-21 12:02:50 by psenough psenough
Scenes sucks.
added on the 2004-01-21 13:43:44 by Optimus Optimus
wheeee, the thread was optimused long ago before the real optimus showed up! =)
added on the 2004-01-21 14:17:29 by dipswitch dipswitch
:(
rulez added on the 2004-01-21 15:44:40 by DiJ DiJ
CLASS has no CLASS.. EOD
added on the 2004-01-21 19:43:27 by Stelthzje Stelthzje
>I'm not impressed by your foul language; it doesn't make you look very smart.
>But hey, it impresses a few dumb sceners.

well said plek, from now on, go say that to the mirror every time you are going to write something on pouet
added on the 2004-01-22 18:41:59 by hollowman hollowman
This is really good (the discussion, NOT the shite prod!). PPl have been knockin´heads like you forever over this problem. The only difference being that everyone seems a bit estranged by the fact that plek, as a "member" of this scene is taking a stance that is incompatible with what everyone must surely agree the source from which the demoscene evolved. The first "demos" on home computers? Intros by people like Dynamic Duo and GCS on C64 here in Germany, from ESI and others in the US, moving on to groups like Red Sector, whose MegaDemo #1 back in 89(?) spawned an ARTFORM that has culminated in what we are seeing as new releases these days. Hell, even Melon Dezign was once warez-related!!!! What´s sad though, is the fact that we have a couple of childish little "script-kiddies" of this discussion who never learned to argue in a grown-up manner. Grow up, you sad little boys. There will always be warez no matter what. BTW: Class were never as "classy" as they´d have liked to be.... (my 2 cents..)
sucks added on the 2004-01-25 01:00:13 by mct mct
Crackerintros were cool when they gave rise to the demoscene at the beginning of the 80ies.. Now they just complement the works of inept loser-coders (crackers) who are not able to create anything of their own.
added on the 2004-01-25 02:19:19 by Stelthzje Stelthzje
Why do people support warez so violently? Because they like to have nice stuff on their computers, and they don't want to pay for it. Downloading a piece of software takes little effort and pays big rewards.

What Plek says is true. By any objective standards, copying software is unethical. Nobody with warez on their computer can agree with Plek, however, because that forces them to either delete the warez or live with a guilty conscience. The only way to have warez is to deny that they are unethical, even if doing so requires being illogical.

Plek: I admire you for standing up for justice, but I don’t think you realize the implications of your argument. In a perfect world, everyone would treat the issue philosophically and agree with you. This is the real world, however, and the issues you bring up have practical implications. People will not accept your arguments because doing so requires changing their lifestyles. They will use any logical fallacy possible to keep their warez without feeling bad about it. You cannot win, but keep up the fight!

There are other types of free software besides warez. The demoscene is a perfect example. People spend months preparing high-quality productions so they can release them for free to the community. Demos are openly creative, free from the bonds of corporate mediocrity. If you want top-quality free software, support your local demo group, open source project, or freeware author.
added on the 2004-01-25 06:01:27 by s_tec s_tec
class rulz!
rulez added on the 2004-01-29 10:26:15 by Biter Biter
nicely done...
just wondering how it comes that my server is the main download link 0_o i never spreaded that just upped it for 2 friends *g*
rulez added on the 2004-02-10 23:36:14 by slashy slashy
Quote:

What´s sad though, is the fact that we have a couple of childish little "script-kiddies" of this discussion who never learned to argue in a grown-up manner. Grow up, you sad little boys.


I'm a professional developer who codes your ass homewards by a long shot. Get your facts straight, santa-claus :)
added on the 2004-02-11 00:05:37 by superplek superplek
To cut it short: Just shut up. We've had our fun now, now don't come with this "serious" stuff on our asses, certainly not when that insists a lot of totally irrelevant "blah" about bearded nerds coding on 80's hardware who all of the sudden acquired some 'mad social skills'.

Damn, get lost. Crawl back under our tombstone.
added on the 2004-02-11 00:09:44 by superplek superplek
Quote:
To cut it short: Just shut up. We've had our fun now, now don't come with this "serious" stuff on our asses, certainly not when that insists a lot of totally irrelevant "blah" about bearded nerds coding on 80's hardware who all of the sudden acquired some 'mad social skills'.

Damn, get lost. Crawl back under our tombstone.

What´s sad though, is the fact that we have a couple of childish little "script-kiddies" of this discussion who never learned to argue in a grown-up manner. Grow up, you sad little boys.
Quote:
Plek: I admire you for standing up for justice, but I don’t think you realize the implications of your argument. In a perfect world, everyone would treat the issue philosophically and agree with you. This is the real world, however, and the issues you bring up have practical implications. People will not accept your arguments because doing so requires changing their lifestyles. They will use any logical fallacy possible to keep their warez without feeling bad about it. You cannot win, but keep up the fight!

There are other types of free software besides warez. The demoscene is a perfect example. People spend months preparing high-quality productions so they can release them for free to the community. Demos are openly creative, free from the bonds of corporate mediocrity. If you want top-quality free software, support your local demo group, open source project, or freeware author.

This is really good (the discussion, NOT the shite prod!). PPl have been knockin´heads like you forever over this problem. The only difference being that everyone seems a bit estranged by the fact that plek, as a "member" of this scene is taking a stance that is incompatible with what everyone must surely agree the source from which the demoscene evolved. The first "demos" on home computers? Intros by people like Dynamic Duo and GCS on C64 here in Germany, from ESI and others in the US, moving on to groups like Red Sector, whose MegaDemo #1 back in 89(?) spawned an ARTFORM that has culminated in what we are seeing as new releases these days. Hell, even Melon Dezign was once warez-related!!!! What´s sad though, is the fact that we have a couple of childish little "script-kiddies" of this discussion who never learned to argue in a grown-up manner. Grow up, you sad little boys. There will always be warez no matter what. BTW: Class were never as "classy" as they´d have liked to be.... (my 2 cents..)
Quote:
That said, I think we can agree that human egoism, a very primitive aspect that resides in all of us (albeit in different proportions), has been a great barrier for things such as religion, socialism and communism (and many more); and I'm totally unsure if this human aspect will ever disappear.. It's the way of nature; there's not really a point in denying that. The question is if we can "beat" it, as it were.

I believe the reason why the "human nature" is so apparent in todays society is just because she actually is under control. Think about it, no one will commit any crimes if everything is allowed because there aren't any crimes to commit :)
Quote:
I'm painfully aware of this and I hope the day will never come when I'll imediately reject radical ideas... This is personally a very important thing for me too, to not only question everything, but always remember to Consider everything.
Im sorry but I see things totally the other way around. The true art is to live without any limitations, it's not a crime to deny the system and philosophing and whining all day is alot more constructive then killing of and hurting eachother with wars and prisons. I've never claimed to be an intellectual and my belief is that it's You who is ignoring the environment ("you cant own land and you cant eat money"). And what hard work is it that you're refering to that you do? Are you helping progression anything by holding on to your medieval values? Are you politicaly active? Are you really trying to change society or are you just holding on as hard as you can to your DVD:s and your 12":s and your money?
Quote:
Ooh baby
Come to me baby just come to me
don't breake my heart tonight, swinging my soul desire
baby just come to me, be what you wanna be
using your fantasy, I need your soul to see

Baby just come to me, now we can do it right
holding each other tight, now we can make it right
I promise you delight, waiting until day light
I gotta have the key, to open your heart to me
now I can set you free, be what you wanna be
don't wanna live alone, I gotta be so strong
don't wanna be alone,

Baby I love you so, and never let you go
I'm looking for your face, wating for warm embrace
I'm living in the space, I'm following your trace
tell me what's going on, tell me what's going on
I'm gonna make you queen, girl have you ever seen

The true art is to live with the given limitations. I don't see it as a crime to fit into the system a little, instead of philosophing and whining all day about how things are morally wrong, and that you can't wait for evolution to clean up this mess. I'm getting tired of these so-called intellectuals (because really, you guys aren't that as smart as you'd like to think) who keep ignoring their environment. Progression is reached through hard work, not through sitting around and whining about the reality that surrounds you.
Quote:
near a tree by a river
there's a hole in the ground
where a old man of aran
goes around an around
and his mind is a beacon
in the veil of the night
for a strange kind of fashion
there's a wrong and a right
near a tree by a river
there's a hole in the ground
where a old man of aran
goes around an around
and his mind is a beacon
in the veil of the night
for a strange kind of fashion
there's a wrong and a right
but he'll never, never fight over you

I Realize As I See
All The People Holding Tight
As I Leave The World Tonight
Yeah Eh
Meeting The Light


Morning Time, I Sit Here Looking All Around
And Everything Seems So Colourful
And Life’s A Miracle

Dawning Sun, I Here In The Wind Your Sweet Hum
I Feel It All Slip Away...
Slip Out Of My Hands


I Realize As I See
All The People Holding Tight
As I Leave The World Tonight
Yeah Eh
Meeting The Light
Quote:
To cut it short: Just shut up. We've had our fun now, now don't come with this "serious" stuff on our asses, certainly not when that insists a lot of totally irrelevant "blah" about bearded nerds coding on 80's hardware who all of the sudden acquired some 'mad social skills'.

To cut it short: Just shut up.
added on the 2004-02-11 00:19:14 by Stelthzje Stelthzje
And who the hell are *you* :)
added on the 2004-02-11 00:45:17 by superplek superplek
Mr.SuperDupah-makes-war-with-everybody-that-crosses-his-way"Plek" is one reason why I often get pissed at Pouet.net. And that's a shame as the idea behind this website is quite nice.
added on the 2004-02-13 19:19:17 by ghandy ghandy
1MB for this! That is waaaaayy too much. Should've been able to make some generator.
added on the 2004-03-02 20:38:40 by FreeAll FreeAll
Interesting discussion.
Too bad I do not know what about since the download does not work...
added on the 2004-04-23 15:46:45 by mjz mjz
You won't have to see this thing in order to know that, right? :)

Ghandy: You're a laughable prick. Always been :)

Like most here.
added on the 2004-04-23 15:54:08 by superplek superplek
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added on the 2004-04-23 16:58:37 by p01 p01
Quality at last!
added on the 2004-04-23 17:03:35 by superplek superplek
three yays for mr hasselhoff!

*YAY*

*YAY*

*YAY*

!!!!!
sucks added on the 2004-04-23 17:07:41 by okkie okkie
Ok, here is my opinion on software piracy in general. It is so long since I tried to bring in some new arguments and clear up some things:
First of all, it is not possible to find a clear, abstract rule to define what is legal or not. Clearly, it would be too hard to condemn "borrowing a cd" or sth, and it would also be too hard to completely allow any kind of copying on any information whatsoever, because no programmer would be able to make a living anymore and there would be a lot less inventions, because it would not be possible to get a patent.
So what is good and what is bad? Since everything you do has always both a positive as well as a negative effect on something, everyone tries to do as much good and as little bad as possible. Since a hole book could be written alone on how people weigh certain benefits to themselves in comparison to other people, or other life-forms, I am going to cut short here to simply say, that to most people, oneself or family/friends is more important than other people. That is why competing exist, because if everyone would respect everyone else to be as important as oneself, noone would care who actually is the best, or wins, or whatever.
And the connection with software copying/piracy? The main question is, of course, how much copying a program benefits yourself and harms someone else. It is very important to see two cases here: If you copied the program, the person who originally made it has not lost something, but if you would have bought it otherwise, that person did indeed lose something, even though it never had it. This sounds bizarre at first, but has to be understood because otherwise the hole conversation about software piracy makes no sense.
So, if you copied a program, you actually steal the amount of money you do not pay. Is that bad? Basically it is, because if noone would pay for their software, companies would not have enough money to create new software. So, the more intersting question is, whether you would buy the software, if could not copy it? I know it sounds strange, but copying something you would not be able to buy is, logically, a lot less bad than copying something you could pay for. Let's assume that when you were 15 years old, you enjoyed playing around with "3D studio max" and the skills you gain in that age are the ones which make you become a really good professional animator later, of course using legal versions of this software by then. Then the copying was "ok", because summed up, there is gain, which are your creations many people enjoy, using this software you learned to use when you could not legally have had it.
Still, if that child would not have had this software, it would have done something else and could have gotten another job where it could have been equally successful or even more successful. One could even go so far as to say that repeatedly copying software prevents people to get strong principles which in turn prevents them from devoting their lives on seriously improving aspects of this world. Instead they just live their lives, doing what everybody else does and without ever achieving anything really great.
It can be seen that really evaluating the positive and negative aspects of pirating software can become very complex. But I hope I also made clear that whenever you copy a program, you gain yourself an advantage on the cost of someone else. And as I also said, every action you do, does that.
So you have to find a balance. And this is mine:
- Copying expensive software which is made to help you make money (like Delphi, Visual Studio, etc...) is ok, if you use to create freeware, etc.. That is especially true if you already have a different version, e.g. a Visual-C-author-edition out of a Visual C++ book.
- Copying for your personal enjoyment, like computer games or music CDs, is a lot worse, because you are using the data for what it was really made for, and the "benefit-in-the-future"-argument I gave above does not apply. In general, this is a bit like sneaking on an empty rollercoaster seat without paying for it... If only a few do it, it will not cause a lot of harm, but if too many do it, the person owning the rollercoaster will have to close it because they do not get enough money. Besides, there is a lot of freeware games and music on the radio. So the right would be, of course, to pay for the rollercoaster, as well as for the games or the music. If you do not agree, try find a really objective argument against it.
- Copying the aforementioned expensive software to make money is already very close to simply making copies of original CDs and selling them. And here is the rollercoaster comparison again: This is like creating your own entrance to it, with an attached fee that is lower than the regular fee. The rollercoaster owner clearly has the right to attempt to prevent and punish this!
added on the 2004-04-23 18:29:37 by mjz mjz
fuckings to plek and okkie
stakka:

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added on the 2004-04-23 18:41:39 by okkie okkie
i didn't see anything
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shit..
added on the 2004-04-23 18:52:08 by okkie okkie
you are
this ain't no fucking forum so shut up
added on the 2004-04-23 18:56:03 by unlock unlock
there goes a nice diss :/

fuck it!! still i say:

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added on the 2004-04-23 18:56:04 by okkie okkie
touché :)
added on the 2004-04-23 19:08:54 by okkie okkie
nice pics....

anyways anyone knows homepage of class?
rulez added on the 2004-05-12 00:54:21 by 16bit 16bit
This link is broke (of course).
Anyone have a copy of this still or an alternate URL?
added on the 2004-06-04 02:11:29 by radman1 radman1
If so, please email me. radman[at]acid[dot]org.
added on the 2004-06-04 02:34:19 by radman1 radman1
Thanks to the person who sent it to me, I've placed a copy on-line:

http://www.acid.org/info/mirror/loaders/clsndtro.zip
rulez added on the 2004-06-04 03:31:50 by radman1 radman1
Kinda nicely done, but I don't really like to equate the demoscene with cracking groups, even if they do share a common ancestry.
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added on the 2004-09-14 19:33:18 by superplek superplek
So sad :"((

stop talking crap about the warez i bet
you all use cracked something sometime.

im gonna miss them such great intros and installers and the most favorite the tunes
by maktone brought them to a whole lot higher level.
gonna miss them :(

rulez added on the 2005-09-27 10:33:21 by gangsterHH gangsterHH
rulez added on the 2006-01-21 17:06:50 by iks iks
Well, what can i say? It's a sad one... very sad, specialy with maktone chiptune.
But some how gets a little away from the oldskool style wich i like best.
rulez added on the 2006-11-28 01:32:42 by R2-D2 R2-D2
well... rest in peace animal and dog...
rulez added on the 2007-02-08 12:58:11 by sim sim
R.I.P
rulez added on the 2007-02-21 12:30:52 by v3nom v3nom
slow rendering code
Shit.
sucks added on the 2007-12-02 13:30:51 by Preacher Preacher

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if this prod is a fake, some info is false or the download link is broken,

do not post about it in the comments, it will get lost.

instead, click here !

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