Breakpoint 2006
category: general [glöplog]
and its not like you are too stupid to know this either, I dont kknow why I have to write it down here for ya. so really... whats up ?
as seen on scene.se =)
Well, you obviously until now really didn't get the point about the issue in germany (maybe the post I just did helps). The point is simply: The only problem is if people think you might be meaning your nazi phrases seriously.
The problem is not, that germans don't want to be reminded about the past. It's the exact opposite. We all were tought to always be ashamed about the nazi past, and most germans are very ashamed indeed. And this makes any nazi phrases and signs that could be taken for real very offensive. While germany these days has much less nazis than many other european countries, we are very afraid about this slight minority. And as a city, there is no bigger shame than having active nazis in your town. Each time a town in germany has some bigger nazi meeting, this town will be mentioned as an evil nazi town in all major newspapers, and that town will suffer great consequences.
And whatever you may think about it: It's the reality and we have to live with that. Yes, a BP visitor running in Bingen's street yelling "Heil Hitler" could easily mean the end of Breakpoint, destroying all the work I've put into getting city support and permissions.
Maybe you now see why we do have to take this issue seriously. Calling us orgas nazis on pouet is one thing, we can easily handle those insults (and still one maybe should think about what getting called a nazi means for a german), but if we see that there is the slightest chance that something like this could get to the "outside" world of Bingen - it's a risk we won't take, especially not for someone who's telling us how much we suck for years.
The problem is not, that germans don't want to be reminded about the past. It's the exact opposite. We all were tought to always be ashamed about the nazi past, and most germans are very ashamed indeed. And this makes any nazi phrases and signs that could be taken for real very offensive. While germany these days has much less nazis than many other european countries, we are very afraid about this slight minority. And as a city, there is no bigger shame than having active nazis in your town. Each time a town in germany has some bigger nazi meeting, this town will be mentioned as an evil nazi town in all major newspapers, and that town will suffer great consequences.
And whatever you may think about it: It's the reality and we have to live with that. Yes, a BP visitor running in Bingen's street yelling "Heil Hitler" could easily mean the end of Breakpoint, destroying all the work I've put into getting city support and permissions.
Maybe you now see why we do have to take this issue seriously. Calling us orgas nazis on pouet is one thing, we can easily handle those insults (and still one maybe should think about what getting called a nazi means for a german), but if we see that there is the slightest chance that something like this could get to the "outside" world of Bingen - it's a risk we won't take, especially not for someone who's telling us how much we suck for years.
I see you still decided to go on the line that I have said how much you have sucked for years (bp organizers).
Afaik you had some kindof review system on your site where you where able to vote about stuff. Maybe you could atleast look at my feedback there + the feedback in the post breakpoint threads.
Anyways, about this entire "nazi joke" thing, ofcourse i knew germas in general are offendend by this, we even have a joke like this in "Sällskapsresan" - ending up with the swede being beaten up and put to hospital. However, I never did believe (until now) that youths grown up with internet and freedom of speach and all that yaddla yaddla would be offended by their ancestors have or have not done.
For instance, in Sweden we have just nearly published documents about how we even (more than before) did suppor the nazi regime in Germany during WWII. But its not like we are getting offended by persons, we cannot be judged by our ancestors and shouldn't, we make TV programs about it and learn from it, but we will never take the blame for our ancestors, and I never thought you would either.
I thought it was somehow restricted to "older" people, still having ancestors (perhaps nazis, perhaps antinazis) in fresh memory and dont want to see their names being dragged in the mud.
Afaik you had some kindof review system on your site where you where able to vote about stuff. Maybe you could atleast look at my feedback there + the feedback in the post breakpoint threads.
Anyways, about this entire "nazi joke" thing, ofcourse i knew germas in general are offendend by this, we even have a joke like this in "Sällskapsresan" - ending up with the swede being beaten up and put to hospital. However, I never did believe (until now) that youths grown up with internet and freedom of speach and all that yaddla yaddla would be offended by their ancestors have or have not done.
For instance, in Sweden we have just nearly published documents about how we even (more than before) did suppor the nazi regime in Germany during WWII. But its not like we are getting offended by persons, we cannot be judged by our ancestors and shouldn't, we make TV programs about it and learn from it, but we will never take the blame for our ancestors, and I never thought you would either.
I thought it was somehow restricted to "older" people, still having ancestors (perhaps nazis, perhaps antinazis) in fresh memory and dont want to see their names being dragged in the mud.
And well, just because lator had to provoke once again, we've now wasted several hours of organizing team just a few hours before party setup starts. That sucks big time, too.
no man, its all winded down to what we said in the previous posts...
germans dont have a sense of humor, everything in that post of yours turns to it. and yes, I agree that if there was the slightest chance that someone would run down the street heiling at BP its a risk etc etc etc (because of that the ppl in bingen dont have the humor) but there AINT the slightest chance that this will happen because it was a JOKE, a joke about nazis, germany, and germans dont understanding nazijokes (how much you ever want to say you do)
The only thing you are doing by baning lator and then writing this about hurting BP is provocing ppl to actually start yelling heil hitler at BP because they are mad that you banned lator. thats how kids work. especially when they are so fucking drunk that they will get at BP. the are swedes, what do you expect, we are ashamed about our nazipast too (how we helped you in the war) but atleast we can se the humor in it. but who cares, I dont know why im taking lators side in this, I actually hate the guy, fuck it ,ban him. lets see what will happen, its a great social experiment.
germans dont have a sense of humor, everything in that post of yours turns to it. and yes, I agree that if there was the slightest chance that someone would run down the street heiling at BP its a risk etc etc etc (because of that the ppl in bingen dont have the humor) but there AINT the slightest chance that this will happen because it was a JOKE, a joke about nazis, germany, and germans dont understanding nazijokes (how much you ever want to say you do)
The only thing you are doing by baning lator and then writing this about hurting BP is provocing ppl to actually start yelling heil hitler at BP because they are mad that you banned lator. thats how kids work. especially when they are so fucking drunk that they will get at BP. the are swedes, what do you expect, we are ashamed about our nazipast too (how we helped you in the war) but atleast we can se the humor in it. but who cares, I dont know why im taking lators side in this, I actually hate the guy, fuck it ,ban him. lets see what will happen, its a great social experiment.
scamp:
Provoke? :(
I tried to (seriously) explain why I thought you hadnt taken me any serious before. Given ofcourse, my head has been spinning the last hours and i seriously need sleep.
Provoke? :(
I tried to (seriously) explain why I thought you hadnt taken me any serious before. Given ofcourse, my head has been spinning the last hours and i seriously need sleep.
Anyways, good night and good luck with the party. And sorry if my last posts provoked, it was one of the few of my pouet posts that really hasnt tried to.
Time to get some sleep again.
Good luck with Breakpoint and have fun.
Time to get some sleep again.
Good luck with Breakpoint and have fun.
and with that, I resign to bed. fuckings to internet! greets to speedheilers
Anyway, all this isn't about nazi stuff anyway, we really went off-topic.
The reasons we banned lator is:
- He caused trouble in the past (last BP)
- For years, he's causing serious troubles with his trolling prior to each party (remember the mac 'aproar') when we need the time most
- Ryg told him very clearly to stop trolling because else he would be banned
- He continued trolling
He's wasting lots of our time, he's insulting us, and he is breaking our rules on purpose. That's a pretty good reason for finally getting rid of him. More time to focus on those people who support us, follow our really open-minded ruleset and try not to waste our time.
The reasons we banned lator is:
- He caused trouble in the past (last BP)
- For years, he's causing serious troubles with his trolling prior to each party (remember the mac 'aproar') when we need the time most
- Ryg told him very clearly to stop trolling because else he would be banned
- He continued trolling
He's wasting lots of our time, he's insulting us, and he is breaking our rules on purpose. That's a pretty good reason for finally getting rid of him. More time to focus on those people who support us, follow our really open-minded ruleset and try not to waste our time.
- He caused trouble in the past (last BP)
I thought this wasnt that big of trouble as it obviously have been. Sorry about this, and esp. sorry to kb.
- For years, he's causing serious troubles with his trolling prior to each party (remember the mac 'aproar') when we need the time most
This wasnt intented as trolling, but in the end it sadly ended up as it, wich was a shame since a serious discussion kindof got lost. But in the end it was your (Bp orgas) decission and I annonunced on MSO for a compomachine for the compo you created for mac only (wich i was personally against).
- Ryg told him very clearly to stop trolling because else he would be banned
When was this?
"He's wasting lots of our time, he's insulting us, and he is breaking our rules on purpose. That's a pretty good reason for finally getting rid of him. More time to focus on those people who support us, follow our really open-minded ruleset and try not to waste our time."
As I have said, I have never tried to insult you, only making harmless jokes (i thought). Ive always gived Breakpoint good and honest reviews and have always enjoyed the party. And what about breaking your rules on purpose? What is that all about?
I thought this wasnt that big of trouble as it obviously have been. Sorry about this, and esp. sorry to kb.
- For years, he's causing serious troubles with his trolling prior to each party (remember the mac 'aproar') when we need the time most
This wasnt intented as trolling, but in the end it sadly ended up as it, wich was a shame since a serious discussion kindof got lost. But in the end it was your (Bp orgas) decission and I annonunced on MSO for a compomachine for the compo you created for mac only (wich i was personally against).
- Ryg told him very clearly to stop trolling because else he would be banned
When was this?
"He's wasting lots of our time, he's insulting us, and he is breaking our rules on purpose. That's a pretty good reason for finally getting rid of him. More time to focus on those people who support us, follow our really open-minded ruleset and try not to waste our time."
As I have said, I have never tried to insult you, only making harmless jokes (i thought). Ive always gived Breakpoint good and honest reviews and have always enjoyed the party. And what about breaking your rules on purpose? What is that all about?
Drifting somewhat off topic...
At last year's Breakpoint I had the opportunity to speak with many people of various nationalities on wide-ranging topics. Being the only Canuck in sight, this made me a somewhat popular target for long-winded discussions.
Often it would start with someone asking if Canadian troops followed "Dubya" into Iraq, where I would respond in the negative. This was always followed with some sort of "that's good to hear" comment, accompanied by a good hour or two discussion on all sorts of political/social/nonesensical topics.
But what surprised me is how open Germans were to discussing their Nazi history. This wasn't something I was expecting. In fact, I was under the impression that following the Basil Fawlty "don't mention the war" rule was cardinal.
I'm no fan of censorship* -- "Bass" logo being a silly but noteworthy example -- but it was, for lack of a better way to describe it, encouraging to hear Germans remembering their past so openly. (Insert famous "those who forget" cliche here.)
Anyways, back to the topic already in progress...
*Canada has similar censorhips laws disguised as "Hate Speech Laws."
At last year's Breakpoint I had the opportunity to speak with many people of various nationalities on wide-ranging topics. Being the only Canuck in sight, this made me a somewhat popular target for long-winded discussions.
Often it would start with someone asking if Canadian troops followed "Dubya" into Iraq, where I would respond in the negative. This was always followed with some sort of "that's good to hear" comment, accompanied by a good hour or two discussion on all sorts of political/social/nonesensical topics.
But what surprised me is how open Germans were to discussing their Nazi history. This wasn't something I was expecting. In fact, I was under the impression that following the Basil Fawlty "don't mention the war" rule was cardinal.
I'm no fan of censorship* -- "Bass" logo being a silly but noteworthy example -- but it was, for lack of a better way to describe it, encouraging to hear Germans remembering their past so openly. (Insert famous "those who forget" cliche here.)
Anyways, back to the topic already in progress...
*Canada has similar censorhips laws disguised as "Hate Speech Laws."
This really shows that Internet sucks. Bashing and trolling. In the old days noone spent time on such shit and the focus was on more important things.
But thats the prize to to pay for information for the masses.
Freedom of speech sucks.
But thats the prize to to pay for information for the masses.
Freedom of speech sucks.
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most germans WANT that censorship - simply because they are afraid that nazis could become more powerfull again
On the off-topic boat to hell again: this is an illusion -and it's time your people realized that (also, powerful is short one of those 'L' thingies). Most germans want to believe that for seriously psychological fucked-up reasons. Moreover, they seem to think it fights neo-nazi tendencies, which it doesn't. Falun Gong would like to have a word about freedom of expression, dude.
In between my preparations on our release and your stressful organizing tasks, feel free to come to the Limp Ninja treehouse for a drink and a serious conversation on that matter. In the worst case, you'll get genially drunk and none the wiser ;)
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As I have said, I have never tried to insult you, only making harmless jokes (i thought). Ive always gived Breakpoint good and honest reviews and have always enjoyed the party.
It's a shame this happend lator, but as we say in dutch 'Wie kaatst kan de bal verwachten' what translates to 'who throws can expect the ball back' and means 'if you pull shit, the shit will eventually pull you'. If you keep making 'harmless' jokes that you know will not be found amusing by the people you crack 'm too, expect repercussions!
the german censorship thing is a whole different matter though.. I always wonder if germans find this amusing or not. (A rap video by the New York based comedy group The Whitest Kids)
(the previous post is not meant as trolling. I am seriously wondering what germans in general think of that video. I myself find it so ridiculously over the top that it becomes harmless)
and sorry for even MORE derailing, god i suck :(
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In the old days noone spent time on such shit and the focus was on more important things.
Yeah, like rag wars on various boards.
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Freedom of speech sucks.
No, it has only two problems:
1st problem is that people tend to release all sorts of non-relevant mental crap.
2nd problem is that people take the freedom of speech as a freedom of insult. We've seen that in the reactions to the mohammed cartoons.
For the offtopic discussion... I was born in the GDR so my early childhood was a bit different from what you people know. In the years of 1990/1991 I've learned how fast hate against other people can happen in a democratic country. In a city only about 30 km from my parents place happend some encroatchments against people searching for asylum, the city became Germany wide known for that bad manner of some people. Wrong politics against racism in the GDR combined with "freedom" in the new Germany... So there's actually a sense for that laws against Nazi symbols (which went to way too far but that's another topic). When you show Nazi symbols (may it be the Nazi swastika, may it be Nazi salute, ...) and it even only looks like you're praising them than you can get into serious trouble. It's not that people can't laugh about making fun of some Nazi jokes, but keeping millions of deaths in mind there's often only a very thin boarder between fun and praise/insult.
From what I've noticed over the years people often reduce the more than 1000 years of German history to only 12 years and use them to blame the now living people for everything when they feel in the right mood. Germany and France don't support the USA in their war against Iraque? They must be evil and unthankful after all that help in and after WWII. Most people just forgot that some facts:
* Together with France, Poland and the European parts of the Soviet Union, Germany was one of the most destroyed country. Even people who were born 10 years after the war often had to suffer from its damages. Many German cities even have still today some wounds (one of the better known might be the Frauenkirche here in Dresden, finished only half a year ago). People in Germany actually still can see the results of the Nazi regimen.
* The winner writes the history and the winner has the law on his side. Nazis got their judgments for war agains humanity, but had someone to suffer for dropping the a-bomb? Had someone to suffer for bombing German cities? No, because the Good people were only fighting against the evil.
* Heiling in German cities may in the USA be compared to putting Stars and Stripes onto the floor and walking with muddy shoes over it. People in Germany don't have that kind of cult for a flag.
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"Bass" logo being a silly but noteworthy example
But using the SS logo can be seen as glorifying them, even when it isn't meant to be so. It's like using symbols of the comunism in the USA of the 1950s.
To give an end to that large text (I hope it doesn't contain that much mistakes and not finished sentences) I leave you with a short hint: think before you act and fight against rascism because it can't coexist with the open mind of the demoscene.
Okkie: I see that song as a parody of Nazi symbols, it's quite bad but I'm not offended. But I can't really laugh about it. Charlie was way better in that role.
And to support scamp at least a bit:
And to support scamp at least a bit:
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next to every country has those dark topics that are excluded from free speech.
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Upon TMNT's first arrival in the United Kingdom, the name was changed to "Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles" (or TMHT, for short), since local censorship policies deemed the word ninja to have excessively violent connotations for a children's program.
as far as i'm concerned, i don't give a rats ass about lators nazi jokes (or his muslim and other crap for that matter).
the point is that he's been insulting, flaming and annoying us in all kinds of ways for the last four years. and even though i'm not particularly offended by nazi stuff (despite the fact that it's getting OLD) the fact that he's going to such lengths to get attention and provoke people bothers me A LOT.
he doesn't seem to be getting this, but i'd say it's fairly obvious that over the last year, my attitude went from "well let's let him do that if he needs that attention" to "man, shut the fuck up already". look at my and other bp organizers' posts here in the last few weeks.
this is not about nazi allusions (for me atleast), but simply about him generally being an ass and annoying the hell out of us. the answers to my "shut the fuck up already, final warning" post continued in exactly the same way as always.
when he's willing to push things that hard, it's about time he got pushed back.
the point is that he's been insulting, flaming and annoying us in all kinds of ways for the last four years. and even though i'm not particularly offended by nazi stuff (despite the fact that it's getting OLD) the fact that he's going to such lengths to get attention and provoke people bothers me A LOT.
he doesn't seem to be getting this, but i'd say it's fairly obvious that over the last year, my attitude went from "well let's let him do that if he needs that attention" to "man, shut the fuck up already". look at my and other bp organizers' posts here in the last few weeks.
this is not about nazi allusions (for me atleast), but simply about him generally being an ass and annoying the hell out of us. the answers to my "shut the fuck up already, final warning" post continued in exactly the same way as always.
when he's willing to push things that hard, it's about time he got pushed back.
Ohhh crap....
dubmood: I suggest you should examine the end of WWI, the contract of Versailles and the following stuff until 1933 to get a clue about the "whys" and "hows"...but all in all that does _not_ belong to this threaddy, teddy ;)
There are some (or maybe several) sessions in the Pouet BBS such as the recent "German?" thingie, where this bollocks once again broke lose just like in here.
So if you want to discuss the national-socialist-genocide-swastika-wtf stuff, would you please be so kind and place it there?!
It's less than one week to work 'til the coolest party takes off...so:
dubmood: I suggest you should examine the end of WWI, the contract of Versailles and the following stuff until 1933 to get a clue about the "whys" and "hows"...but all in all that does _not_ belong to this threaddy, teddy ;)
There are some (or maybe several) sessions in the Pouet BBS such as the recent "German?" thingie, where this bollocks once again broke lose just like in here.
So if you want to discuss the national-socialist-genocide-swastika-wtf stuff, would you please be so kind and place it there?!
It's less than one week to work 'til the coolest party takes off...so:
Code:
move.w #$a55,machine
move.l #3*86400-1,d7
lp:
bsr finishProd
dbf d7,lp
bkpt #$06
rts
"the point is that he's been insulting, flaming and annoying us in all kinds of ways for the last four years. and even though i'm not particularly offended by nazi stuff (despite the fact that it's getting OLD) the fact that he's going to such lengths to get attention and provoke people bothers me A LOT."
well, as you said.. its old, damn old. that being said i cant see how it can be that provoking any more.
"look at my and other bp organizers' posts here in the last few weeks."
i must have missed, i havent been active on pouet the last few weeks at all. afaik the only "nazi" jokes ive posted have been together with silly productions having swastikas or real nazi demos from germany. otherwise i have been offline completly so i wouldnt know what you have said, exept in this thread where quite frankly everbody with a foot and an eye would know it has been jokes and not "threats".
"this is not about nazi allusions (for me atleast), but simply about him generally being an ass and annoying the hell out of us."
wow, banning people you find annoying on pouet.. keep it up!
"the answers to my "shut the fuck up already, final warning" post continued in exactly the same way as always."
on pouet?! how about telling me on irc, email or face to face? its not like you would take it seriously if i said it you via POUET, would you? After all, you are having problems reading the stuff iam writing here seriously still.
"when he's willing to push things that hard, it's about time he got pushed back."
so it IS about the "nazi" jokes anyways. since quite frankly its the only think i have written here on pouet that couldve possibly "harmed" you at all, exept the comment about an OLD hw for bp 04 or whenever it was.
Personally i think this is somekindof personal campaign of scamp and perhaps ryg (who somewhy suddenly decided to not troll back and just get mad, even tho he "didnt take the nazi jokes seriously", uhh).
I mean, why would you tell someone he is banned from a party just a couple of days before his flighttrip to Germany? Why would you NOT tell him before when you start discuss his future at the party that he might not be let in, and being able to book with cancel reservation to the travelagent? If this is a stunt you are going to continue me i say stop it already, it will sometime hurt someone who has spent seriously a lot of his money for visiting Germany/breakpoint.
well, as you said.. its old, damn old. that being said i cant see how it can be that provoking any more.
"look at my and other bp organizers' posts here in the last few weeks."
i must have missed, i havent been active on pouet the last few weeks at all. afaik the only "nazi" jokes ive posted have been together with silly productions having swastikas or real nazi demos from germany. otherwise i have been offline completly so i wouldnt know what you have said, exept in this thread where quite frankly everbody with a foot and an eye would know it has been jokes and not "threats".
"this is not about nazi allusions (for me atleast), but simply about him generally being an ass and annoying the hell out of us."
wow, banning people you find annoying on pouet.. keep it up!
"the answers to my "shut the fuck up already, final warning" post continued in exactly the same way as always."
on pouet?! how about telling me on irc, email or face to face? its not like you would take it seriously if i said it you via POUET, would you? After all, you are having problems reading the stuff iam writing here seriously still.
"when he's willing to push things that hard, it's about time he got pushed back."
so it IS about the "nazi" jokes anyways. since quite frankly its the only think i have written here on pouet that couldve possibly "harmed" you at all, exept the comment about an OLD hw for bp 04 or whenever it was.
Personally i think this is somekindof personal campaign of scamp and perhaps ryg (who somewhy suddenly decided to not troll back and just get mad, even tho he "didnt take the nazi jokes seriously", uhh).
I mean, why would you tell someone he is banned from a party just a couple of days before his flighttrip to Germany? Why would you NOT tell him before when you start discuss his future at the party that he might not be let in, and being able to book with cancel reservation to the travelagent? If this is a stunt you are going to continue me i say stop it already, it will sometime hurt someone who has spent seriously a lot of his money for visiting Germany/breakpoint.
to me it seems like the organiser team should spent less time catching on the trolling at pouet.
stefan, buy a wig and a fake mustache so people wont regocnise you!
stefan, buy a wig and a fake mustache so people wont regocnise you!
Now i found the "final warning" post by ryg, i was looking Waaay back in this thread, now that i had found it.. Its quite remarkable that you take a link to thesun as a private saying. Yes, the private campaign is still the only motive i can see. Or seriously lack of humor or PR need, why i wouldnt know, everybody should know what BP is and somehow i dont think this is good PR afterall.