R.I.P. Karlheinz Stockhausen
category: general [glöplog]
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it sure beats reocuringly shooting yourself in the foot while having everyone else think you're nothing more then another ego absorbed smartass. we already have a keops.
keops: sorry sweety, i couldnt resist *** gotta flame them all while the flamethrower is hot :P
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nutman: sorry to disapoint you, again typical keops syndrome, but i dont exist to pick on you.
That's where that second sentence takes all its sense, when one knows I'm not even taking part to that discussion...
Well, I too try to follow the demoscene and, believe me, I REALLY try hard to give fitting comments to all prods I watch. How one should try to understand a prod more than merely watching it once or twice, I fail to understand. Are there some books I need to read in order to "get" certain productions? Are some prods accompanied by a comprehension-manual?
No, I think the problem is merely that you and I clash on a personal level. There's not much to do about it, except for maybe just acknowledging the fact that you can't agree with everybody. What you CAN do, however, is to keep your remarks on a civilised and noble level. I try to do that, even harder from now on, promise, and I am sorry for all that felt offended by my comments, for they are just that: my honest comments - I don't wrap it in cotton. I say it like I see it. The opposite is more damaging and deceiving - and totally missing the point of constructive criticism, in my opinion.
No, I think the problem is merely that you and I clash on a personal level. There's not much to do about it, except for maybe just acknowledging the fact that you can't agree with everybody. What you CAN do, however, is to keep your remarks on a civilised and noble level. I try to do that, even harder from now on, promise, and I am sorry for all that felt offended by my comments, for they are just that: my honest comments - I don't wrap it in cotton. I say it like I see it. The opposite is more damaging and deceiving - and totally missing the point of constructive criticism, in my opinion.
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It's the classic "Emperor's New Clothes" trick.
Ok, you dared say it. I didn't. ;)
Yes, because everyone who disagrees is either an idiot or troll. I wonder if you actually understand what I meant by that Emperor's New Clothes reference because you'd realise it's a very valid point, not trolling.
I do think many controversial artists (like those in this thread) are geniuses. They manage to produce something with minimal effort and education, they make fame and fortune from it, and convince everyone that they're masters of their art.
Here's a perfect example of such people...skip ahead 3 minutes to watch some pretentious "artist" trying to blag it and making a fool of himself....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzoRD1Qvm10&feature=related
I do think many controversial artists (like those in this thread) are geniuses. They manage to produce something with minimal effort and education, they make fame and fortune from it, and convince everyone that they're masters of their art.
Here's a perfect example of such people...skip ahead 3 minutes to watch some pretentious "artist" trying to blag it and making a fool of himself....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzoRD1Qvm10&feature=related
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Ok, you dared say it. I didn't. ;)
Well it's what I've been thinking all along, I just wanted to see if someone would change my mind. :)
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like ps said, all you need to do is get of your shrine, realize there's a whole wide world out there and that it certainly does NOT revolve around you and your overinflated ego and opinions. that's the key. the zen.
Amitari: you're walking a dangerous path there. You're implying that it's narrowmindedness that Buttler doesn't like THAT particular direction. What if he was into all kinds of different genres? What if he liked ALL of them, except for the avantgarde direction? It's very unfitting to assume and assess a person by looking at what he/she dislikes, instead of trying to comprehend the whole picture. It's like people here are saying: "You don't get Stockhausen, so you're pretty stupid". Where did THAT assumption stem from? Narrowmindedness on your part, perhaps?
Just a suggestion, you know...
180° away from the styles I mentioned in the composers above, we have musique concrete, and one of his most exciting representants:
*** Pierre Henry -- Well isn't this guy fun or what? He's been all over pop culture, made the title track of the Futurama show, and has been remixed by all kinds of people. He's also a guy whose name basically is synonymous with musique concrete.
Splicing tapes to make tracks didn't scare him away back then, and he made both totally fun and scary tracks.
He's a rockstar amongst academical people ;)
He turned 80 yesterday and I think still does concerts and let you visit his house, which is also a musical instrument. The proof is, I have a CD of him where about half of the tracks are made using creaking door noises. (Variations pour une porte et un soupir) And he manages to make this exciting (and fun!) to listen to.
Recommended works:
Messe pour le temps présent
Variation pour une porte et un soupir
*** Pierre Henry -- Well isn't this guy fun or what? He's been all over pop culture, made the title track of the Futurama show, and has been remixed by all kinds of people. He's also a guy whose name basically is synonymous with musique concrete.
Splicing tapes to make tracks didn't scare him away back then, and he made both totally fun and scary tracks.
He's a rockstar amongst academical people ;)
He turned 80 yesterday and I think still does concerts and let you visit his house, which is also a musical instrument. The proof is, I have a CD of him where about half of the tracks are made using creaking door noises. (Variations pour une porte et un soupir) And he manages to make this exciting (and fun!) to listen to.
Recommended works:
Messe pour le temps présent
Variation pour une porte et un soupir
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pretentious
a word morons use to describe stuff they don't understand
twit
knos: shite, you're really on a roll now, eh? ;)
Nutman quite frankly, while your attitude is balanced, I don't really get how you can defend what Buttler's doing here. He's just in for laugh that's so obvious by that point, judging a whole lifetime output in a 5 minutes mark.
I mean come on. I don't really give a damn, since I'm perfectly ok with enjoying a lot of things from messhugah to circle to pierre henry to john cage to drexciya to autechre, to dr dre, the beastie boys and even some sly and the family stone. And anything *anyone* says on the internet will not detract me from liking Frank Zappa's music one bit.
I love to share what I like, that's one thing. Maybe because I think it does good things to others. I'd be embarassed to share what I dislike actually, being so young, frankly so insignificant for it to be relevant to anybody else.
Disliking something is a far too serious affair to let it in the hands of internet people. It's something that is seriously difficult to do *right*
I mean come on. I don't really give a damn, since I'm perfectly ok with enjoying a lot of things from messhugah to circle to pierre henry to john cage to drexciya to autechre, to dr dre, the beastie boys and even some sly and the family stone. And anything *anyone* says on the internet will not detract me from liking Frank Zappa's music one bit.
I love to share what I like, that's one thing. Maybe because I think it does good things to others. I'd be embarassed to share what I dislike actually, being so young, frankly so insignificant for it to be relevant to anybody else.
Disliking something is a far too serious affair to let it in the hands of internet people. It's something that is seriously difficult to do *right*
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twit
The civilized words inhabit this place.
Among them are also stfu, idiot, morons, stupid - alongside claiming that your opinions are not shared by hardly anyone, or rather that everyone else disagrees (did you ask everyone else, ps, or did you just take it that since you, okkie, and couple more seem to disagree with me must mean that everyone else agrees with you?), this really is a safe haven for mature and meaningful discussions, where nothing is neglected, disapproved of or cast away with a below-the-belt elitist blow.
Really.
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a word morons use to describe stuff they don't understand
How naive you are!
nutman: i’m not saying he’s stupid for not liking the genre, far from it. what i am saying is that he is stupid for believing that because HE does not see value in it, then it must be worthless and less valuable than the genres he does like. he has shown a complete lack of regard for personal preference and individual experience in this thread from his first post. and that to me is a sure fire sign of a narrowminded idiot :)
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Disliking something is a far too serious affair to let it in the hands of internet people. It's something that is seriously difficult to do *right
I understand what you're saying, but I'm not that diplomatic. I want to use the internet as a means of communication just like I do every day in regards to conversations I have IRL. It's not hard to keep it sober and real, but it's even easier to fuck it up by throwing in really uncalled for arguments and...well..."rude" words. Now, I'm not saying that I have not stumbled upon pitfalls regarding that, but I'd like to believe that I can lead a serious discussion without EVER feeling the urge to go to such extremes as to calling somebody a narrowminded self-obsorbed egomaniac - I'm not even thinking like that. Ok, ok - I called the portoguese drama queens, but that's like claiming the frensh are arrogant. Everybody knows it for a fact. ;)
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It's like people here are saying: "You don't get Stockhausen, so you're pretty stupid".
we dont think you're stupid for not liking stockhausen, we think you're stupid for not bothering to try to even understand it before stating you dont like it, and when confronted with it, acting like a clueless troll whinning for the right to an opinion based on basic idiocy that even clashes with something you'd supposedly enjoy doing. no one is forcing you to listen to it an enjoy it, we're just telling you to learn to listen before speaking your mind about it.
Amitari: a narrowminded idiot wouldn't even bother actually looking into what he/she is commenting. At least Buttler did just that and that's worth mentioning. Then he said "And for the record, I do think the man is a genius. Just not in the area of music", and I think that's an honest opinion. You might disagree, but at least he made a valid statement here (trying to recover from those couple of rather harsh posts, including "LOL" and "Hack", I know...) and that I can respect.
Amitari, it's not really here about stupidity.
People using the adjective "pretentious" tend to sound like if they were projecting a lot of weird motives (and their own inferiority complexes) onto others. It's even worse when they start saying *something* (instead of *someone*) is being pretentious.
It's quite a vapid kind of criticism when you have to call something pretentious.. Is it criticism of the person or the actual creation? I never know. In any case equating some hypothetical pretenses of its creator with the creation itself is kind of retarded.
Sibelius (random name I picked here, another great contemporary composer) might have been a pompous asshole for all I know (he probably wasn't) however that wouldn't detract me from liking his symphonies.
If it's not about the creators' motivations, then I guess the issue with "pretentious" works is probably of how they were presented to the person calling it pretentious. And this is where I would sort of agree.. Sometimes fan have this awful attitude to the object of their liking that they deem it fine to call it superior in whatever intellectual or of another abstract immeasurable quality.
Whatever the theories or work behind them, the enduring quality of Stockhausen's and others music will be that they are after all, just pieces of music. Some of them damn fine, some great, some of them less so.
In addition there's a whole body of litterature around it.. treat it like the stories around rockstars or jazzmen. It's about building a world of symbols to enable creation inside it. But what is certain, is that all of those whose music will endure have devoted their skills to making music, not to sound pretentious.
We're the trashiest of the trashiest, not some kind of academia.. And we know about stockhausen and others. Slowly, through their music and their influence onto others' they've proven their music would endure.
People using the adjective "pretentious" tend to sound like if they were projecting a lot of weird motives (and their own inferiority complexes) onto others. It's even worse when they start saying *something* (instead of *someone*) is being pretentious.
It's quite a vapid kind of criticism when you have to call something pretentious.. Is it criticism of the person or the actual creation? I never know. In any case equating some hypothetical pretenses of its creator with the creation itself is kind of retarded.
Sibelius (random name I picked here, another great contemporary composer) might have been a pompous asshole for all I know (he probably wasn't) however that wouldn't detract me from liking his symphonies.
If it's not about the creators' motivations, then I guess the issue with "pretentious" works is probably of how they were presented to the person calling it pretentious. And this is where I would sort of agree.. Sometimes fan have this awful attitude to the object of their liking that they deem it fine to call it superior in whatever intellectual or of another abstract immeasurable quality.
Whatever the theories or work behind them, the enduring quality of Stockhausen's and others music will be that they are after all, just pieces of music. Some of them damn fine, some great, some of them less so.
In addition there's a whole body of litterature around it.. treat it like the stories around rockstars or jazzmen. It's about building a world of symbols to enable creation inside it. But what is certain, is that all of those whose music will endure have devoted their skills to making music, not to sound pretentious.
We're the trashiest of the trashiest, not some kind of academia.. And we know about stockhausen and others. Slowly, through their music and their influence onto others' they've proven their music would endure.
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In addition there's a whole body of litterature around it.. treat it like the stories around rockstars or jazzmen. It's about building a world of symbols to enable creation inside it.
Now here's someone who understand the meaning of diskmags and scene fiction. Thank you Knos. And feel free to join anytime ! :)
Nutman, no really you can't possibly say he has checked any of those old guy's works. A couple of minutes of listening to that music from some low-quality internet feed is not sufficient to form an opinion on any of those.
A lot of those works are made to be listened in good settings, comfortable setups and over long time periods. Theyre not meant to be listened to as popful 'radio-tailored' tracks where everything's repeated twice and hook is no less than 4 seconds away from any part of the song.
Which is also fine, however a completely different experience.
What buttler's doing is the equivalent of complaining that this fine bottle of wine does not get him drunk fast enough. Well sorry, it's not meant for that.
Coca-cola's good and refreshing *AND* I like pu-erh tea, however while the two are both beverages, they require different levels of involvement. Applying the first mentality to the others will only result to a crappy experience.
A lot of those works are made to be listened in good settings, comfortable setups and over long time periods. Theyre not meant to be listened to as popful 'radio-tailored' tracks where everything's repeated twice and hook is no less than 4 seconds away from any part of the song.
Which is also fine, however a completely different experience.
What buttler's doing is the equivalent of complaining that this fine bottle of wine does not get him drunk fast enough. Well sorry, it's not meant for that.
Coca-cola's good and refreshing *AND* I like pu-erh tea, however while the two are both beverages, they require different levels of involvement. Applying the first mentality to the others will only result to a crappy experience.
Well I might not have told you this before, but I was starting to bemoan the lack of works of fiction around the demoscene barely a couple of months before you released your initial PDF.
There you go!
There you go!
Knos : Would you feel like doing it yourself ? Since you're (also) a composer (apart from being coder, and a bit writer if I'm well informed...), you could be totally self-sufficient. :D Wouldn't it be nice ?
I'm really having trouble following some of these posts now. Some of you are trying way too hard to sound intelligent and academic and it's actually enforcing my point. I think a lot of you are more about this cultured and intelligent image than the music/art itself. Which by definition is pretentious.
Amitari: I'm talking about more than just personal preference here. I'm looking at the music based on my personal education, experience and creation of music. Personally I'm not a big Queen fan, but I would never pick fault with their music because it takes real talent and creativity to do what they do.
Amitari: I'm talking about more than just personal preference here. I'm looking at the music based on my personal education, experience and creation of music. Personally I'm not a big Queen fan, but I would never pick fault with their music because it takes real talent and creativity to do what they do.
what knos said.
buttler: why would 10 diferent people in this place all enjoy sounding pretentious? just to disagree with you? what is your importance to the rest of us anyways? im seriously considering you as just another troll and simply banning you to end this discussion, im refraining from doing so for the obvious fact that im involved in the discussion itself otherwise you'd be gone from pouet by now.
I had a plan I had a plan.
It was lost in the midst of a storm of tasks thrown at me
It was lost in the midst of a storm of tasks thrown at me