pouët.net

RIP Nectarine... AGAIN!

category: general [glöplog]
Thanks for the service! Hope to see/hear it online some day again!
added on the 2018-06-25 19:00:20 by d vibe d vibe
The Amstrad CPC people can listen to Rolandradio.net. And if someone or Arab needs some bandwidth, servers or other technical stuff to run nectarine again I will be glad to help.
Just as a sidenote, I've been getting a lot more Github notifications about the Nectarine source (I had a @mention there) now that Arab has flipped the tables, so it seems to me that the very least that had a desired effect.
added on the 2018-06-25 19:14:24 by Gargaj Gargaj
Quote:
p.s. i still want to run it, but you're not going to dictate the terms.


Fine. You don't want to hand off control to others, for whatever reason. Maybe you don't trust that others could run it, or maybe you simply like having the control, or something else.

In any case: can you at least share your ultimate vision of the site? What changes are you wanting to put in? What policies are going to change? Will things be appreciably different when the site comes back? How will future disputes be resolved? Communicated?

You are the self-designated custodian of the Nectarine community resource. Many of us want to know if you will continue to be a good steward of that or not. Pulling the plug like this was a severe blow to a lot of people's trust in you as admin. How will that trust be restored?
added on the 2018-06-25 19:25:01 by hornpipe2 hornpipe2
And, are you at least open to the idea of greater openness with the site? Possible co-admins, offsite backups, a method for community feedback that actually results in policy change?
added on the 2018-06-25 19:28:50 by hornpipe2 hornpipe2
not sure what to make of everyone's reactions from every side. just.... wow.
added on the 2018-06-25 20:11:48 by nagz nagz
Quote:
by la_mettrie:
BIG NEWS!!!

Just got a message from Arab! Before handing the database to us he wants a Dodge Viper, an SX-64, two crates of Dark Lord Imperial Stout and a poodle puppy.

Might we be able to deliver those? Anybody who could contribute?

Please everybody, your help is needed right now!
You're being counterproductive. I told you off for the shit you posted to the Discord, too.


Quote:
by arab:
Nectarine will be back, that's for sure.

Some points after settling my thoughts:
- thanks to all who expressed their dismay at my person, much appreciated, you have my almost undivided attention going forward - i won't forget (cocky bastard grabs popcorn)
- some backend stuff needs to be rewritten (and the need was expressed on the forum long before the shutdown, nobody stepped in to do that in the open). i have now found a developer who is willing to help - no thanks to anybody in this thread.
- artists who expressed their concerns regarding the db and their inclusion therein - i hear ya. i will either remove your songs personally, update the status to something more positive - banned is for sure a bit too strong word to show that a tune was rejected - or give you the option to manage your own tunes (this needs development, so for now please be patient).

ETA: unknown.

I know even when the site returns, there are going to be people who distrust you now. Possibly more so than before for some. You had ultimate power over a community website, and proved it by taking it down. I understand how you got to this point. I don't agree with the logic, but I understand it. There was a lot of shit going on, and some of it surfaced in this thread. I'm not completely blameless, for sure, but most of the time I tried to be fairly level-headed about things, or at least so I thought.

  1. That's a terrible way to do things going forward. It seems very much against your point of this all being for the better. People were already calling you out as vindictive, and some were still unhappy about the banning of Creonix, whether it was deserved or not. (I have no opinion past or future on that.) This certainly doesn't help things.
  2. Indeed it does, but you'd be wrong to say nobody did. ers35 definitely said they were willing to help with the upgrade and migration to a current django, and actually started contributing pull requests. So I hope your secret contributor is ers35. Also plenty of people over the years expressed interest in contributing code, but until you posted an ability to stand the site up with Vagrant, this was difficult, even if you had the instructions. If I recall correctly, the Vagrant repository was only really known to a few people besides yourself. I don't recall it being officially broadcast to the entire site. So people who tried back in the pre-Vagrant days may not have realized they should give everything another look. Second, did you ever stop to consider that perhaps the reason some people didn't want to contribute to the side code was you? We had quite a few developers step up after the site closure willing to help toward restarting or rebuilding a third Nectarine indicating they were turned off from contributing by some aspect of your leadership. At least one developer completely gave up trying to contribute patches a few years ago and moved to CVGM instead.
  3. Nothing to say on this one - the site always said it would try to respect artist's wishes.



Quote:
by arab:
I did ask - multiple times before - imagine me loosing faith in anybody who has ever been to nectarine to step up the game. I did. And so i didn't. And specifically asked not to contact, because it would be pointless.

First wave of stilted but in the end effect fake helpfulness would die out after a week.

So please, just stop.

Several people have stepped up and contributed patches or pull requests over the years. ers35 even said they would help migrate the site to a newer django. I don't know how far that got, but I at least saw some movement and pull requests from him on the repo. Not everyone has consistent constant availability all the time. Also, to echo my comments above, many people don't want to work on projects with people they have problems with.


Quote:
by arab:
@hornpipe2 get you shit straight:

- i never expressed open hostility to the nectarine community
- i never personally attacked anyone using nectarine
- i've been most polite towards the whole community during the time site was up and running (tho i might have expressed strong opinions now and then regarding requesting and general queue quality)

yet, for all of the above - all i saw in this thread was:
- assumptions
- acusations
- asshatery
- smartassery
- ect.

imagine me changing my attitude in the end effect. but - yer entitled to your opinion. keep it. best to yourself.


  1. I'm not entirely sure on that. I feel there's a little bit of truth in some of these complaints, but I don't know any admin of a community site that's going to come out without any complaints about their tenure. It is unfortunate, but it seems to come with the job. :(
  2. There were two users, at least, that I felt you went after more than was necessary. You declared MrsBidette a bot, and originally wouldn't listen to when she and sqrmax had proof to the contrary. (This mostly died off, and I eventually met them both in person sometime afterwards that same year. People still occasionally "joke" that she's a bot as a result of this, even though I'm pretty sure they now know it's not true.) I also occasionally took issue with certain decisions or decrees made about the site but felt I couldn't really say what I really thought, because I feared you would have an angry response or disable my account. You had sole admin access to everything, and at best I had moderator+ abilities. I helped to try to smooth over and keep people aware of policy changes, the new unwritten rules that were declared, and more, but felt I was limited in my capacity as an admin-in-all-but-name.
  3. It's true, "mostly polite." There were definitely disagreements with users, various angry moments, and issues people had with some actions taken that didn't involve directly talking to them. It wasn't all roses. (I've been on the site since 2009, and active enough that when I took a break from being on there so often last month or so people were wondering if something happened to me.)
  4. No disagreements to 4-7.



Quote:
by arab:
fucks to all the suckers who think they can bring me, the nectarine community, or in fact the demoscene down just by posting a few words. you write your own history.

what's in it for me? nothing. i do it for the demoscene and thats enough of a gratification itself. always did, always will.

Aaand if you wan't to personally punch me in the face - come do it at the last Riverwash. It's just around the corner (i might hit back tho).

I am somewhat sure that people commenting in this thread don't want to "bring you down," Nectarine, or the scene. Many of these same people want to see Nectarine live again. Many people here had disagreements, some of which were expressed in pretty awful ways, but this doesn't mean they want to stand triumphant on a pedestal while you sit in the dirt. I can't and don't speak for everyone, but I at least certainly don't and I'm sure Rapture doesn't among others. (It'd take too long to list everyone.)

As to the face punching, oof. I'm not sure it's a great idea to go inviting fights. I sincerely hope nobody tries. That would be awful.


Quote:
by hornpipe2:
In any case: can you at least share your ultimate vision of the site? What changes are you wanting to put in? What policies are going to change? Will things be appreciably different when the site comes back? How will future disputes be resolved? Communicated?

You are the self-designated custodian of the Nectarine community resource. Many of us want to know if you will continue to be a good steward of that or not. Pulling the plug like this was a severe blow to a lot of people's trust in you as admin. How will that trust be restored?
Quote:
by hornpipe2:
And, are you at least open to the idea of greater openness with the site? Possible co-admins, offsite backups, a method for community feedback that actually results in policy change?

Without any major site policy changes going forward and far less unwritten rules I do not see how the relaunch will turn out any different.
Quote:
Quote:
fucks to all the suckers who think they can bring me, the nectarine community, or in fact the demoscene down just by posting a few words
I am somewhat sure that people commenting in this thread don't want to "bring you down," Nectarine, or the scene.


Hi Arab,
The minimal interactions you and I had on the site were always pleasant--never an argument or any tension. If the site goes back up, I see no reason why that would change. I was pretty angry when you took the site down, precisely because I value the scene and Nectarine and do not want to see anyone "bring them down." Remember that the reactions here were from people upset at the "bringing down" of Nectarine--they were not bringing it down with their words.

In the future, I am happy to financially contribute to the site (as my means will allow), as I have in the past. Not contributing labor isn't due to a lack of willingness, but rather a lack of technical skill that would be needed. Song uploading, artist/song/tag editing, etc.--I am happy to invest time in that, as I have before.

I read all of your messages with an open mind. I can understand that you felt certain mounting frustrations over time. Those frustrations, however, were unbeknownst to most of us users (including users like myself who have always treated you with respect and politeness); the shut-down therefore felt like collective punishment with no evident cause. I'm sure that we all want to move forward at this point, but I'm a little concerned that your messages don't exhibit an understanding for our feelings. I think that Hornpipe's question about how trust will be restored is quite relevant.

I appreciated Starchaser's response which was respectful but which addressed some real issues directly. In the spirit of dialogue, I will just add one item: In my interactions with others on the site, users & admins alike, I've encountered a kind of fear on their part regarding their ability to freely approach you with feedback and be heard. I've gotten the sense that some felt that they were walking on eggshells and had to tip-toe, worried they could lose privileges, be sidelined, etc. That wasn't my experience, as you and I exchanged nice messages, but from others I did get this sense of a lack of comfort in terms of open communication.

I would ask you to consider what many others are suggesting--some new model of shared leadership among several individuals with the appropriate technical and Scene qualifications. Such a model might best serve the community, as it would relieve you of some of the pressures you've complained about and distribute the responsibilities among multiple parties who could help push site innovation and development forward.
added on the 2018-06-25 21:26:02 by Oldchap Oldchap
Good to know Nectarine frontend will be going back up – and thanks for keeping the streams working all this time, Arab. My hopes were that no one wants to see Nectarine gone – and I’m happy to see that’s the case.

’Chaser and Oldchap above said it way better than I could.
added on the 2018-06-25 22:06:47 by MyO MyO
BB Image
added on the 2018-06-26 00:19:44 by Salinga Salinga
And i thought i have problems...
added on the 2018-06-26 03:39:29 by D4XX D4XX
I'm still mega ultra mad prad quad at Serp and wait at a parking lot.
added on the 2018-06-26 13:09:27 by Rapture Rapture
Quote:
In my interactions with others on the site, users & admins alike, I've encountered a kind of fear on their part regarding their ability to freely approach you with feedback and be heard. I've gotten the sense that some felt that they were walking on eggshells and had to tip-toe, worried they could lose privileges, be sidelined, etc.


I don't know where this is coming from, as on the (obviously) hidden mod/admin forum nobody ever who had spoken their voice got banned or punished or had their mod/admin privileges revoked as a result.

Quote:
I also occasionally took issue with certain decisions or decrees made about the site but felt I couldn't really say what I really thought, because I feared you would have an angry response or disable my account.


This especially coming from you Starchaser is even more surprising as you had basically unrestricted access to all the site resources and voiced your concerns on slack where we had some conversations.

Hearing this i see no point in going forward with anything.

I'll anonymize the db (as in clear all email addresses, passwords, private user data, pm's, user profiles, forums and song comments) and make it public.

For obvious reasons (copyrighted material given with permission to only stream to nectarine) i can't make the song repo available online for download.

The now requestless/random stream will be available nontheless.

Where you go from here is up to you.
added on the 2018-06-26 13:12:01 by arab arab
Whatta!

------------- cut here ----------- with your magic scissors
added on the 2018-06-26 13:17:50 by Rapture Rapture
Why remove song comments and forums and profiles? They have been public and a big part of the community.
added on the 2018-06-26 13:56:25 by yzi yzi
Quote:
Why remove song comments and forums and profiles? They have been public and a big part of the community.

Because with removing / anonymising user data those won't be readable and make any sense anyway.
added on the 2018-06-26 14:00:17 by arab arab
GÖTTERDÄMMERUNG!!!!!
And if a permission has been given to stream on Necta, I don't think anybody meant that as "the particular incarnation of Necta that's run on Arab's servers". If it's called Nectarine demoscene radio and clearly a continuation of the same thing, the only difference being the lack of Arab, then I don't think any reasonable person would see a problem. We are not lawyers and certainly didn't think using Necta is like some legal contract stuff. If someone has a problem with a song being available on an Arab-less site, I'm pretty sure they'll react and ask for removal.
added on the 2018-06-26 14:05:19 by yzi yzi
How about resetting passwords and letting people reclaim their accounts?
added on the 2018-06-26 14:21:58 by yzi yzi
Okay hold on.
Quote:
Hearing this i see no point in going forward with anything.

Could you please clarify that? Because if that means “I’m washing my hands and not gonna do anything”…

From what I gathered during personal interactions with the entire Nectarine admin/mod staff (including Arab, Starchaser, Terrasque et al), I had an impression that every single one of you are a team that can work together for the common goal.

During my personal interaction with Arab specifically over a certain issue, I had an impression that once you go past the defense mechanisms against the caustic critique (for a lack of a better expression) that’s somewhat common in the demoscene (sadly), you’re a very much agreeable person.

Please, all of you, go past the negative feelings and work together. It is my belief that all of you want nothing more than seeing Nectarine up and running – use this as your mutual common point.

Because if the end result of this whole incident will be having to rebuild Nectarine almost entirely from scratch with its user/fanbase fractured and involved in infighting, I WILL BE SO FUCKING ANGRY AT ALL OF YOU
added on the 2018-06-26 14:37:44 by MyO MyO
…Apologies for the outburst in the end of my previous message. I really, really don’t want to see the Nectarine core fall apart like that. You’re all good people in my eyes, and this entire event really friggin’ hurts.
added on the 2018-06-26 14:49:40 by MyO MyO
Ok, can we all calm down now and solve this is a sensible way? No shitting at each other, quit that. Thanks. (ps. says the parking lot whatta-guy, lol :D)
added on the 2018-06-26 15:06:43 by Rapture Rapture
11 pages of open mudslinging, misplaced entitlement, bitterness and vitriol, yeah sure, from now on the discussion is likely to become civilized indeed...
added on the 2018-06-26 15:12:24 by havoc havoc
I am actually more of a rebel than ever.
added on the 2018-06-26 15:21:22 by skarab skarab
between, this shitty thread should be tagged as "residue".
added on the 2018-06-26 15:23:42 by skarab skarab

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