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Use of UE et cetera

category: general [glöplog]
gargaj: not a commercial one, but your example is very bad and you know it.

even in 1988 nobody asked you to write you own tracker or your own graphic editor, but how are rendered the effect on the screen is the minimal requirement and the base of the movement.
added on the 2018-08-06 00:15:45 by rez rez
Nowhere in your post did you mention the word "commercial", instead you wrote "if you can’t code, you can’t do a demo". You didn't code a synth.
added on the 2018-08-06 00:17:48 by Gargaj Gargaj
3rd place demo does not show explicitly enough which commercial tool it was created with, so blame them for not having enough code and also for trying to hide this fact.

1st place demo uses the commercial tool made by the co-authoring scener, and it is being very explicit by showing a huge tool logo at the start. So blame them for trying to use demo as an advertisement and also mention that coding at work is unfair vs coding at nights.

And after this outburst you would make jokes about Spectrum scene...
added on the 2018-08-06 00:25:16 by introspec introspec
Quote:
but how are rendered the effect on the screen is the minimal requirement and the base of the movement.


So, the effect on the screen is somehow more important than the generated synthesis that goes with it? That's rather selective.
added on the 2018-08-06 00:26:49 by superplek superplek
Somehow it's good to also use those tools once to realise how much actual code is required to have a product.
Last time I checked, neither Unity nor Unreal were "press play and get a cool demo". And unless what you want is a boring flyby scene player, you still have to put quite a large amount of actual code to have visually creative results.

I agree with the credit part. But it's not like it can dramatically change the impression of a production.

Coders that "start" by using those tools usually go lower level eventually, because curiosity is a strong drive.
Coders that "migrated" to those tools usually have nothing to prove anymore and already spent enough time on those lower ungrateful tasks and want the convenience to focus on actual content.

Now, as a side note, how many groups using commercial tools did winning kickass productions that you doubt they would be capable of pulling without the tools (in just a more time consuming and less convenient way). My own count is 0.
added on the 2018-08-06 00:40:39 by alkama alkama
Quote:
And unless what you want is a boring flyby scene player, you still have to put quite a large amount of actual code to have visually creative results.

I actually disagree with this, check Jugi Kaartinen - Hacking Demoscene visuals with Unity without coding.

I spend a lot of time coding effects and tech even when doing a Unity demo, I use Unity as a tool mainly for directing a production since GNU Rocket and some basic object handler and simple shader passes won't cut it for me. The idea that the production is should never be in the demo compo its using Unity is just ridiculous.

I can understand some of the anger from those that who feel that Unity or some other engine removes too much of the coding process but you also have to understand that it also can be used only as a tool, similar to GNU Rocket or 4klang.

Now about demos that don't have much coding put into them nor code put to the engine, I have to say that I'm a bit conflicted about it.
added on the 2018-08-06 01:13:51 by branch branch
Quote:
The idea that the production is should never be in the demo compo its using Unity is just ridiculous.

The idea that the production should never be in a demo compo because it's using Unity is just ridiculous.*
added on the 2018-08-06 01:15:24 by branch branch
imagine a world where people are upset about an orange demo that kicks a ton of ass

shame on all you 'real' coders you can't make something like this .. even with UE
I don't give a rats ass... Now go and make a demo about it (With or without Engines Suck v5.0).
added on the 2018-08-06 01:29:50 by rudi rudi
what book were you referring to btw
added on the 2018-08-06 02:26:06 by superplek superplek
As a programmer, I'm not entirely sure how using some authoring tool is all that much different from a programmer using a readily-available IDE, text-editor or compiler-toolchain. After all, most half-decent programmers should be able to write their own text-editors and compilers... but most of us don't bother 'cos it's not all that much fun to spend all your time on debugging why your register allocator sometimes ends up screwing up inter-block shuffles when there's a cycle in the stack-slots and you need an extra spill to break it up... when you'd rather not be making a demo instead.
added on the 2018-08-06 03:14:55 by Mystran Mystran
There's no such thing as a level playground.
added on the 2018-08-06 06:29:22 by sol_hsa sol_hsa
For what it's worth, I don't have a problem with UE or Unity. It's just that, until now, there was no exceptional demo made with these tools (but now there is).
In a way this can actually help demoscene outreach, as it shows further diversity of tools.

My only question is - that great effect with the ripping of the mask. Is it a plugin or had to be written from scratch? I have little understanding of UE and how much code is already there.
added on the 2018-08-06 09:02:36 by Navis Navis
I think Jugi (JUGZ) actually already established that Unity is powerful enough to be competitive.

@navis: you still using your own code? And has it progressed structurally from that one file we once got to see years back?
added on the 2018-08-06 09:06:32 by superplek superplek
I do yes, and it hasn't progressed much since (but works very well for me, in terms of development speed). The only difference in the last demo is that it is SDL based rather than on that Nehe tutorial from 2001.
It has been simplified and distilled over the years, so that now it is quite minimal. So FBOs replace PBuffers, new formats for content, more use of latest opencv etc. But the idea is still that each part is a big single file (+shaders) and a spaghetti code master controller for the whole thing.
added on the 2018-08-06 09:12:32 by Navis Navis
That's charming (no sarcasm).
added on the 2018-08-06 09:14:56 by superplek superplek
everybody should use the tools he wants to .. maybe we need a different compo/voting system like in sports .. there are pro leagues, amateurs, hobbiest .. when I start my little hobby projects with *(gfxmemory) = pixelcolor than I see I'll have no chance in life to compete with the power, tools and skills of "pro" sceners .. so I hope for something like children's olympics or the corders equivalent of paralympics ..
Every sport that has judges has problems with it, boxing/MMA being the most notorious for it's snafus. So let's just keep that the way it is :)
added on the 2018-08-06 09:25:47 by superplek superplek
I clapped the skin off my hands for all the top entries at ASM, of course I regret that I could not clap for Hoplite's madskills in the specific case.
added on the 2018-08-06 10:08:27 by dixan dixan
If it's all about content creation, design and composition why do we even care about realtime then? It's just a feature of the authoring tool, isn't it?
added on the 2018-08-06 10:15:03 by dixan dixan
Quote:
Quote:
And unless what you want is a boring flyby scene player, you still have to put quite a large amount of actual code to have visually creative results.

I actually disagree with this, check Jugi Kaartinen - Hacking Demoscene visuals with Unity without coding.

No you're not, you're saying the same thing :)
added on the 2018-08-06 10:17:19 by Gargaj Gargaj
Quote:
gargaj: not a commercial one, but your example is very bad and you know it.

Why bad? I think it's an excellent point, even for demos without size restrictions. People rave on about the importance of coding your own realtime graphics, while a library written by someone else streams music rendered by commercial software.

Quote:
even in 1988 nobody asked you to write you own tracker or your own graphic editor

If it's merely about precedence, just give it a few years to even out. :) "In 2025 nobody asked you to write your own 3D engine!"
added on the 2018-08-06 10:58:48 by absence absence
Quote:
that great effect with the ripping of the mask. Is it a plugin or had to be written from scratch? I have little understanding of UE and how much code is already there


Yes, that's one of the things I was wondering about as well. Before I knew it was a UE demo I thought "man, that must be a shit ton of code going into that, probably some cloth-physics simulator, and then..."
Now with UE is it simply an application of the cloth-simulator shipped with the engine, or is there still a lot of stuff you have to do yourself?

Moving away from code, talking content/resources instead - that is also something that I'm not sure how much is done by the sceners nowadays?
For example the IT-clown model in the Orange demo - is that something they do themselves or is it a "found on the net" 3d mesh? What about the skull?

(oh, and note that I'm only using the Orange demo as an example here, the same question could of course be applied to the other demos as well!)
added on the 2018-08-06 11:06:36 by Sdw Sdw
Quote:
If it's all about content creation, design and composition why do we even care about realtime then? It's just a feature of the authoring tool, isn't it?

It's an interesting question
added on the 2018-08-06 11:06:57 by wullon wullon
On the topic of size optimized intros, I'm sure glad everybody has written their own compressor for hand, and don't 100% rely on something like Crinkler. You know, that's just lazy to use someone else's tool to help author your production, right?
added on the 2018-08-06 11:09:13 by gloom gloom

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