Stupid rules for links

category: general [glöplog]
On that note, we have messes like Protracker where every 0.1x increment has its own prod page...

@havoc: Seems like you're trying to paint everything with a rigid categorization brush that doesn't really work in practice. Not every demo follows exactly the same steps to get made & released; not even close. There are lots of prods out there where going from the party version to the final version paints a picture of how it was developed or changed over time; it's still the same piece, but watching both versions tells you distinct things about it that either one in isolation wouldn't. Removing an easy way to see that in the name "consistency" actually destroys information.

Removing metadata that contains real info (without a VERY GOOD reason) never seems like a good idea to me.
added on the 2018-08-31 10:06:27 by jmph jmph
consistency. what everyone else is proposing is to use multiple systems for the same purpose. if prods are really different you can add multiple links to one page, or if they are really really different you can upload instances of the prods- or something in between maybe? most importantly, it should be upto the user, is what i'm being told is a good idea. i don't subscribe to that idea though ;)
added on the 2018-08-31 10:13:40 by havoc havoc
I think that a party version youtube link is very relevant if such a thing exists. If I've gone to a party and seen the production there, it would be a nice thing to be able to revisit it (especially since my current hardware doesn't run modern demos well enough to watch them). And for some productions (like cdak by Quite/Orange) the party version is different enough to warrant the inclusion of a separate link.

if we allow "youtube (party version)" why should we not allow "random supported linktype (party version)"

You can make a decision not to. Although in all honesty I don't see why.
added on the 2018-08-31 10:54:55 by Preacher Preacher
Couple extra links is way less messy and easier to follow for the end user than fragmenting the prod database with separate versions (like ProTracker as jmph mentioned, or win32 ports of some DOS demos in the early days of pouet, or the proposed separate party & final entries). You're still going to end up linking those different versions in the prod page anyway (i.e. in the vein of remixed in: ..., continued in: ..., etc.) So really this solves nothing and at best gives equivalent or worse UX to the end user, in addition making it worse to the creators by splitting a production into multiple pages (fewer comments per "prod", less visibility overall).

One such example is Guberniya, which has quite a bit different initial and finished versions, but both still obviously are fundamentally the same demo. A "download (party) and "youtube (party)" links absolutely are relevant to the user to compare between the two versions without having to go manually search for then. As creators it makes no sense for us to upload it as two versions since it would make each less visible for people seeking the best ranked 64k intros from 2017.

I have a feeling you actually understand this already, but seems like it's just a matter of choosing to ignore it.
added on the 2018-08-31 11:08:30 by noby noby
i'm ignoring posts that are just random folks' opinions indeed, sorry if that offends you, that's not my intention
added on the 2018-08-31 11:31:41 by havoc havoc
How about mine?
added on the 2018-08-31 11:36:43 by Gargaj Gargaj
depends on the topic
added on the 2018-08-31 11:40:08 by havoc havoc
No it doesn't.
added on the 2018-08-31 11:40:46 by Gargaj Gargaj
ehh what?
added on the 2018-08-31 11:41:31 by havoc havoc
You're trying to duck - the topic is very much obvious in this particular case, given it's the actual TOPIC of the thread.

People (active demomakers) are bringing up an argument that is very much in unison, and your response is "well I'm ignoring it"?
added on the 2018-08-31 11:47:33 by Gargaj Gargaj
added on the 2018-08-31 11:49:52 by Radiant Radiant
I find it funny (but not in a good way) that one of the most prolific and well-esteemed demomakers of the last few years, who also happens to be quite reasonable and well-articulated in his posts, is dismissed as "random folk". I don't mean to ask for favors, but I also don't understand who exactly it is that havoc is doing this extreme consistency shtick for. Some of the demos may have made it big in the outside world, but the vast majority of this site's users are either creators themselves or their regular audience. If you don't respect their wishes you're helping nobody, except maybe your own OCD. Party versions' links deserve to stay.
added on the 2018-08-31 11:50:25 by moozooh moozooh
Radiant: That's fair, but we're not talking about CSDb here :)
added on the 2018-08-31 11:51:29 by Gargaj Gargaj
gargaj: sometimes yeah... am i supposed to feel a moral obligation to answer every argument made on this thread?
added on the 2018-08-31 11:55:34 by havoc havoc
"Every"? No.
If there is one in unison? As a moderator who makes decisions about what's being argued, yes.
added on the 2018-08-31 11:58:21 by Gargaj Gargaj
Gargaj: I understand the difference between Pouët and CSDb or Demozoo, and the CSDb policy regarding releases is rather extremist. However, I still think when there's a substantial difference between a party version and a final version, it makes sense to keep both as separate entries. For at least two of the demos I linked I know there are people who prefer the party version over the final one for example, and though it's a bit of an artificial scenario lets say someone really likes the party version but thinks the final version is shit for some reason -- do they piggie the one entry in that case?

I mean, I guess they could, but I don't see the harm in maintaining two separate entries when there's a substantial difference between the versions. The question then is where do you draw the line, but that's really a question you're facing now as well.
added on the 2018-08-31 11:59:52 by Radiant Radiant
well what's the problem then?
added on the 2018-08-31 12:00:14 by havoc havoc
The problem is that people are disagreeing with your moderation principles and you refuse to debate the issue.
added on the 2018-08-31 12:03:17 by Gargaj Gargaj
find someone else for the job then maybe?
added on the 2018-08-31 12:04:08 by havoc havoc
srsly, it's not like it's a lot of fun or anything
added on the 2018-08-31 12:06:05 by havoc havoc
nobody volunteering...?
added on the 2018-08-31 12:09:16 by havoc havoc
...How did we get here from "should we keep the X type of links"? All I asked for is whether we can get to some form of consensus as to how we proceed from this point onwards. I'm not invested in either variation, though _personally_ the "keep" option makes more logical sense to me, and I think there's been valid arguments made.
added on the 2018-08-31 12:20:28 by Gargaj Gargaj
I think there are still valid use cases for multiple YT links beyond live and such.

Just the two of the top of my head would be something like "Youtube (6581) / (85850)" for C64 stuff and especially with systems like megadrive you have composite/svideo bleed on chroma that can give you a significant advantage with new colour hues/transparency that doesn't exist otherwise.

Some times it's a matter of preference also, where both results have their obvious strengths or weaknesses where the superior one can be quite subjective to each person, and the end result can look great on both, while having no true intended "way".
Not saying we need to have captures for every revision of SID or every signal but usually the guys who do the captures or alternative version have a valid reason on why people could experience it in a different way, visual or historical. I think 24fps caps have a valid reason in cases where the demo wishes to emulate a film look for example but some would still prefer it 60fps.
added on the 2018-08-31 12:22:27 by oasiz oasiz
Radiant: that's also a part of the C64 demoscene culture where releasing unfinished stuff and "percent versions" is and has not traditionally been frowned upon, and where it can take years between the first release and the "full" version. The PC scene at least is a different beast in this regard.

Havoc: I think that as a moderator you should at least listen to the users, several of who are active demosceners and contributors to this site. You might have a good personal reason to disagree or be obstinate (although I don't know what it is), but in the end, this site is for the users more than anyone else. What is the harm of having links that serve a sizeable portion of the active users?
added on the 2018-08-31 12:24:55 by Preacher Preacher
+1 for what Noby and Preacher and (to an extent) Gargaj said. Main DL/YT links should go to the direct download and the best quality video of the most current version - but links like "YouTube (party version)" or "YouTube (live)" definitely serve a purpose and should be kept. Of course we don't need 10 captured videos by different people with their different tastes in resolution, framerate, cropping, etc but when a link actually adds information that the others don't, by all means keep it. I concur with Preacher here: What's the harm? Give me live videos, soundtracks, making-of blogs, source repos, party version download links, side-by-side comparisons and what not. That stuff is interesting.
added on the 2018-08-31 12:54:38 by kb_ kb_