Native dev on oldschool machines. Who does that?

category: general [glöplog]
I code all our smfx demos on the real hardware. This way the process of developing a demo is as streamlined as possible. Quick workflow cycles to development and testing and not to mention including assets provided by team members works nicely! I dont understand why anyone would ever use any crossdev tools, or develop demos on other hardware for that matter. There is simply no reason to.

right, so i can come pick up your cosmosex tonight at 9pm? :P
added on the 2020-04-24 18:04:51 by havoc havoc
I can imagine that the outcome would sound and look very different if you restrict yourself to recording samples on your Amiga and paint all your textures in DPaint. But in the end that is more of a stylistic choice than a question of what is cheating and what isn't.
I can imagine that the outcome would sound and look very different if you restrict yourself to recording samples on your Amiga and paint all your textures in DPaint. But in the end that is more of a stylistic choice than a question of what is cheating and what isn't.

Imagine waiting for a 68000 to render instruments from a soft synth!
added on the 2020-04-24 18:30:18 by djh0ffman djh0ffman
I’m so happy this thread came, after the Unity one ran out of steam
added on the 2020-04-24 18:46:49 by farfar farfar
I once made a prod on oldskool hardware and look how good it is. Real fun stuff if you want to make a scroller and a copper bar. (well one bar is enough) Someone might say I cheated because I coded that while watching Photon's Youtube tutorials on the screen next to the Amiga, but the actual TYPING was done on the REAL Amiga keyboard. And the Amiga was connected to a real CRT display, so what more could you ask for.
added on the 2020-04-24 22:10:56 by yzi yzi
Can we shut the fuck up with purity tests for once, and just make demos? The Unity thread was already very tiresome, and this isn't helping either.
added on the 2020-04-25 00:08:49 by Alpha C Alpha C
Pro tip: demos are not made in any of the threads here.
added on the 2020-04-25 00:25:08 by yzi yzi
...or develop demos on other hardware for that matter. There is simply no reason to.

Yeah, unless one tries to visit a demoparty by plane, train or bus suddenly realizing how much more convenient a notebook computer is, especially when trying to pass security. Ask 505.

However, i prefer coding on the real thing if the real thing is my Falcon. I'm not going back to coding on a 1040STE with a DD disk drive just because the target system is a 1040STE with a DD disk drive.

Havoc, am i a Louser now, too?
added on the 2020-04-25 10:18:11 by Paranoid Paranoid
I missed those times. I came late on the CPC scene since 2000, there was already Winape32 assembler (which is pretty easier starting way for newcomers too, than having to load an assembler from disk on real CPC, have your program freeze, switch on/off CPC and load the assembler again, etc.. (ok today there might be additional hardware ROMs with all tools loaded up, etc)). I tried a bit on Maxam Assembler in my early days on the real CPC. It can be interesting or fun for a while (also makes you more careful with the code you write, you don't try something unless you tripplechecked your code), I did early preview Plasmaworld on Maxam on actual CPC, but my 1st CPC demo was already done on Winape32 assembler. I know some CPCists on the scene might still code on the actual CPCs but also use ROMs and such (maybe relevant if you do hardware tricks that might not work well on emulator (although Winape32 is pretty solid 99% of the time), or if you want to check the colors look correct on actual CPC screen). Later on I even went on the C with some assembly path. I didn't thought about it, I thought it was lame at first, but then I got convinced it's possible and you can select what to optimize with inline assembly and what not!
added on the 2020-04-25 12:18:56 by Optimus Optimus
Also, imho this "purity" talk is just fun and I don't consider it as harmful. If people want to code with Unity, nobody stops them, just some people arguing about, and they will be looking like fringe to the majority anyway so nobody cares.
added on the 2020-04-25 12:21:51 by Optimus Optimus
I mean,. the people who argue "the scene is dead blah blah" and also includes me the boomer, will be looking fringe to most.
added on the 2020-04-25 12:22:41 by Optimus Optimus
I don't see a lot of point now unless you're doing new hardware tricks that require it. People seem to forget a lot of '80s coders jumped to crossdev as soon as they could afford to, because it speeds up the least interesting part of development. A lot of working practices back then were really a necessity of the times.
added on the 2020-04-25 14:18:09 by 4mat 4mat
An Amiga 2000 with 030 to write games for A500...

I remember an interview with the guy who ported Mortal Kombat 2 in one of the old Amiga magazines. He used a PC for writing the code. Commodore themselves used Sun workstations to develop the Amiga operating system.
added on the 2020-04-25 18:59:26 by absence absence
I'd like to know which groups use their native oldschool machine to make demos.
Check out this guy: https://www.pouet.net/groups.php?which=10734; I believe he does a lot (if not all) of his development natively.

Frankly, the rest of your text is too bait-y to take it. No-one really cares about your preferred tool chain, but once you likened most other people's tool chains to steroids and mused about beauté du sport, people feel the need to justify themselves.
added on the 2020-04-25 21:28:17 by introspec introspec
Commodore themselves used Sun workstations to develop the Amiga operating system.

Ha ha haaa!!! So the whole computer is a LIE. Made by cheaters, for cheaters!!

obTopic: AFAIK at least the older MSX demos of Bandwagon were made on the actual hardware, even precalc tables made with BASIC programs or something etc. It was a "dogma" sort of thing. I don't know which ones were made purely like that. But if e.g. this one is, ... wow.
added on the 2020-04-25 22:06:06 by yzi yzi
Did AEG made his stuff on real C64? Not sure if a myth, I remember turrican 3 source https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=13297 was like several floppies on turboass or something on the native machine? And I was wondering how the hell do you develop that and connect the different stuff from many floppies? (I may be saying shit,. I don't know).
added on the 2020-04-25 22:11:09 by Optimus Optimus
How am I supposed to make demos on a PC-Engine natively?
added on the 2020-04-26 10:03:23 by _-_-__ _-_-__
We made demos directly on the Amiga with more or less all tools running on the platform... I think all prods we made up to 2006?? https://www.pouet.net/groups.php?which=727&order=release

Imagine 5.0 for 3D. Brilliance, Truebrilliance for 2D pictures, dzign-anims and textures (transparency+smear in truebrilliance for poor man's smudge). Personal Paint for that magic contrast control on the palette. Also we had our homemade tool Sagakrakken to merge a light-image and a color image into a new combined image.

We've used oil painting on newspaper for some backgrounds. Took forever to watch the paint dry. Now with crossdev the paint just dries right away. Protracker for music with samples from the tumble drier in the basement. It could be considered cheating I guess to use such non-native hardware for the music.

One of the most atmospheric parts of coding on the real hardware is when your code crashes while writing to disk and corrupts the file system. Then you had to wait 0.5 hour praying the filesystem could repair itself and make the partition writeable again. Time well spent!

Still I think doing everything on that limited machine with tools from the 90s had a certain charm. To get the real feeling one should also turn off the internet, revert to mail swapping. Have long phone calls with the group mates lamenting the decline of goa-trance quality as more and more artists start using electric guitar samples.

Those were the days! But they're not coming back :)
added on the 2020-04-26 13:31:45 by rloaderro rloaderro
Its been cool to see what is done for those old machines stretched and moved forward by modern processes and tools (and lots of experience) imo. I'm glad it hasn't remained locked in time for 30 years.
added on the 2020-04-26 14:11:28 by smash smash
native oldschool machine

Come one Madram, you do not even use the native oldschool machine anymore; it is plugged with additional ROM and additional RAM that were not provided with the original stock machine.
Isn't it cheating too ? ;)
added on the 2020-04-26 15:36:20 by krusty krusty
^ burn.
added on the 2020-04-26 16:13:07 by Gargaj Gargaj
All 4K coders are cheaters unless all their tools are 4K or less
Coding on a platforms without an actual keyboard (like a gameboy or a megadrive) is a rather unrealistic endeavor without cross-dev tools.
But hey, whatever floats your boat...
added on the 2020-04-26 18:01:57 by hfr hfr
even on newskool platforms. imagine coding an android demo with just your thumb :D
Bruno Valero nailed it :D
added on the 2020-04-26 18:40:36 by BSC BSC