Deadline 2021: Re-United | October, 8th - 10th | Berlin, Germany
category: residue [glöplog]
I should add something to further disambiguate: I understand that my opinion on this may be an outlier and that I can't begrudge people who are in that group who don't feel the same way.
I do think, however, that during this entire pandemic, as a society, we've forgotten to put our own individual needs aside for the common good.
I do think, however, that during this entire pandemic, as a society, we've forgotten to put our own individual needs aside for the common good.
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To a large extent I'd say the opposite has happened: the common good has tramped the individual needs, at a great personal sacrifice for many individuals. So what is happening now is a pendulum swinging back.I do think, however, that during this entire pandemic, as a society, we've forgotten to put our own individual needs aside for the common good.
That would imply the "common good" (i.e. "back to normal") has been reached - we're not even close, and it's in large part due to the individual pushback.
We can probably agree that there are state interventions affecting nearly everybody severely.
True, businesses closed, jobs were lost, shit time for everyone - but is it comparable to .1%-.3% of the populace dying? (Which was the case here in Europe at least.)
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What I'm saying is, if I'd be in that group and I'd be excluded, I'd understand as a service for the good of the community, because it's not JUST about me. There's other parties, and there's time.
Yes but judging by the way society radicalizes around this topic I have a hard time seeing a future in which anyone from either facet will be welcomed back, I might be wrong, I hope I am.
@Paralax, I'm not sure what you're reading into my posts, but I'm doing anything but arguing for "just yolo it"...
I'm both more optimistic than that and less optimistic - I do think regulations will be the least of the problem (after all, South-East Asia has figured most of this out and has been routinely averting outbreaks over the last decade), but I do think the current insanity will continue to push "the normal" back further and further into the future.
@LJ: Glad to hear, I think that's sensible.
And to be clear: I'm well aware that there's a conflict between individual freedoms and the common good that's hard to reconcile. I think Gargaj just elaborated on that pretty convincingly.
And to be clear: I'm well aware that there's a conflict between individual freedoms and the common good that's hard to reconcile. I think Gargaj just elaborated on that pretty convincingly.
I don't know about your part of the world, but where I am at the moment, it was every time about asking people to make personal sacrifices, while being asked to perform our job duties mostly as there was no pandemic. No-one cared I was not vaccinated in a customer-facing position last year, even though it was a systemic risk to my family and myself. The governments continue to lie about the risks in work environments even now (e.g. school teachers being required to stop using masks because children do not transmit the decease, etc).
So, let me make myself perfectly clear. I am a scientist. I've got vaccinated twice and I will vaccinate my children at the first available opportunity. I wear masks inside of every public space. I also fully support Deadline orgas' decision to require vaccination to attend - if I was an orga, I'd do the same.
However, let us not just accept the current propaganda that it is individuals like us who are being selfish who are at fault at the rates of death we have in our societies. Majority of people in the UK who died from coronavirus died because the lock-downs were introduced too late, even though vaccines were not yet available, and also because people with covid were discharged into care home settings throughout last spring. Majority of people in Russia who died from coronavirus died because government effectively refused to support any form of government-funded lock-down. This means that every person without means to sustain himself or herself had to work. I think blaming these people for making impossible choices is not wise at all.
So, let me make myself perfectly clear. I am a scientist. I've got vaccinated twice and I will vaccinate my children at the first available opportunity. I wear masks inside of every public space. I also fully support Deadline orgas' decision to require vaccination to attend - if I was an orga, I'd do the same.
However, let us not just accept the current propaganda that it is individuals like us who are being selfish who are at fault at the rates of death we have in our societies. Majority of people in the UK who died from coronavirus died because the lock-downs were introduced too late, even though vaccines were not yet available, and also because people with covid were discharged into care home settings throughout last spring. Majority of people in Russia who died from coronavirus died because government effectively refused to support any form of government-funded lock-down. This means that every person without means to sustain himself or herself had to work. I think blaming these people for making impossible choices is not wise at all.
Gargaj, it's impossible to make up a calculation here. For me personally, responsibility does exist - for oneself and others, but there also exists an exposure to natural forces. Responsibility, solidarity don't work and are pointless when mandated with coercive force, we're only cattle then. You cannot even demand an exact reasoning from yourself or others, in the same way as there's a gut feeling and a secrecy of the ballot.
Everybody may find a different balance, and the sum of different balances makes up the population's survivability. There are plenty of Coronas, and this one will likely (scientifically on a firm ground to my understanding), as viral zoonoses that came before it, diffuse into the population as another relatively mild cold. What's "mild" is a matter of interpretation. The queston for me is, how much is it in our common greater interest (and for how long) to disrupt society and to suffer from adverse effects to deny this and to attempt to prohibit this natural process. Is it in our interest all? In any case, to my current understanding, we're long past this point.
Everybody may find a different balance, and the sum of different balances makes up the population's survivability. There are plenty of Coronas, and this one will likely (scientifically on a firm ground to my understanding), as viral zoonoses that came before it, diffuse into the population as another relatively mild cold. What's "mild" is a matter of interpretation. The queston for me is, how much is it in our common greater interest (and for how long) to disrupt society and to suffer from adverse effects to deny this and to attempt to prohibit this natural process. Is it in our interest all? In any case, to my current understanding, we're long past this point.
LJ: I'm afraid you may be stuck on this thread for months if not years then :(
Not if I'm chased outta here before then!
I'm sorry, my "Get vaccinated or fuck off." was quite harsh indeed. Rest assured I don't feel like that anymore.
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You might be delighted to know though that there are parties that may not require masks or certificates at all. Check them out.
Just for the record, at Function we'll be following then-current health regulations, as mandated by the government and/or the event location. Which at the time of writing this post means no restrictions, but this might change with the start of the school season, like last year. It's not our decision if we have to impose restrictions, but we indeed don't plan to impose anything above what's mandatory. We'll be updating our page and also post here in the forum topic as and if the situation changes.
I don't know about you folks but I think this thread is becoming pretty damn decent and kind and respectful, despite widely differing opinions, and I love it. Color me pretty surprised if LJ gets chased out before this thing fizzles out.
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I don't think that vaccination-only is a solid safety concept because if you don't test you may still spread the virus, and you may still kill someone, maybe not on the first hop, maybe not on the second, but again... a vaccinated person can contract the virus and they can be infectious
well as said before the on-premise safety concept is not decided yet, as it will be dependant on the situation then, so we want to finalize like 2 weeks before the party, but it will include at the minimum free (optional) self-tests and we would advise people to take a test at their arrival and before they leave as an additional precaution. (Thanks to UC for sponsoring the tests!)
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excluded from demo-scene events for ever?
oh come on - first of all there are demoparties which don't require proof of vaccination (and also others who do the same as we do btw, we're not the first party), and I'm very optimistic that next year when the whole pandemic situation is more relaxed we won't have to do the same precautions anymore.
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and I'm very optimistic that next year when the whole pandemic situation is more relaxed we won't have to do the same precautions anymore.
I hope you are right but so far I haven't seen any reason to believe this will be true, quite the opposite. And that's precisely why I think this is such a bad idea, you might think it's just a temporary solution until we get out of this mess, but once this infrastructure is in place there is no getting rid of it.
At some point it will go from pandemic to endemic, then go the way of the flu in terms of danger, then we'll have trench warfare over "it's really over yet!" vs "but people are still dying". =)
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this infrastructure is in place
we're not putting any "infrastructure" in place - we can totally decide to not ask for it if we'd like. please leave this "totalitarian regime" angle out, we're not part of a world wide conspiracy to repress the people. get over it
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At some point it will go from pandemic to endemic, then go the way of the flu in terms of danger
yes I hope so too. but why should we ask for vaccination then, if the danger of covid is the same as a flu? (which is clearly not the case yet)
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Wasn't a statement about the current situation, and the flu point might be years in the future.Quote:At some point it will go from pandemic to endemic, then go the way of the flu in terms of danger
yes I hope so too. but why should we ask for vaccination then, if the danger of covid is the same as a flu? (which is clearly not the case yet)
This virus is barely more dangerous than the common flu though, the IFR of the flu is around 0.1%, Sars-Cov2 is about 0.15%. People vastly overestimate the risks of Sars-Cov2. The only reason this is a "pandemic" is because the definition was changed during the Swineflu "pandemic".
You are contributing to it whether you like it or not. And at some point in the future you might not have the option anymore and everybody will be mandated by law to only allow vaccinated people. And don't think the time won't come when there is a treatment you don't want to take but won't have the choice anymore because the infrastructure is already in place.
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we're not putting any "infrastructure" in place - we can totally decide to not ask for it if we'd like. please leave this "totalitarian regime" angle out, we're not part of a world wide conspiracy to repress the people. get over it
You are contributing to it whether you like it or not. And at some point in the future you might not have the option anymore and everybody will be mandated by law to only allow vaccinated people. And don't think the time won't come when there is a treatment you don't want to take but won't have the choice anymore because the infrastructure is already in place.
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oh come on [...] I'm very optimistic that next year when the whole pandemic situation is more relaxed we won't have to do the same precautions anymore.
It doesn't need a conspiracy theory to see that (in germany at least) political figures are pushing more and more towards requiring vaccination, a push that you and other parties of the private sector support by proactively doing so, no matter your intentions behind it.
With all the digital infrastructure that's being built and all the polarization around this do you honestly believe that this will be rolled back in a year or two from now?
Slippery slope is a danger indeed, but one could view the current pandemic as a good global exercise for when the next big one rolls around, and with a lot less controversial relative risk assessments (think of a milder but more contagious version of Ebola).
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This virus is barely more dangerous than the common flu though, the IFR of the flu is around 0.1%, Sars-Cov2 is about 0.15%. People vastly overestimate the risks of Sars-Cov2.
"O’Driscoll and colleagues found a COVID-19 IFR of 0.5% for the USA[1]. In a large review of the available literature, Meyerowitz-Katz and Merone reported an IFR of 0.68% with the lowest IFR being 0.17% and the highest 1.7%[2]. The medical news outlet STAT also mentioned a similar IFR of 0.68% in Arizona. Therefore, it appears that a COVID-19 IFR of 0.1% would sit at the lower end of the range of IFR reported in the literature."
Stop lying.