It's not TEH scene :P
category: general [glöplog]
I was looking this link (http://slashdot.org/articles/05/03/17/1322246.shtml) and thought "Wow, series about the scene". But it was about the other scene. I also love the discussions about the various scenes on the site, because I once thought "Why do we call our demo-scene simply "the scene", as if our scene was one and only? ;P" but then again I see now that about everybody out there is calling their scene simply "the scene"..
I also hate when the hacker scene makes a distinction of "hackers" from hackers (or ""hackers"" from "hackers" so I like to say ;) by using the word "crackers". There is already a cracking scene having nothing to do with this..
And then I was thinking if a series about the demoscene would be a good thing at the end. At a first glance I was exited by such news but then again wouldn't such mainstream distort the idea behind our scene as we know it? Who needs to watch series anyways, when we already know it by heart? (just visit a demoparty and get drunk, not?! ;). That would be aiming to the mainstream so it might be bad. Perhaps only a serious documentary upon the demoscene would be something that I would love to see..
p.s. What's your opinion about "hackers" btw? This scene once bothered me for some strange reasons (some of you may remember my confused message on csipd), I was so crazy about those discussion as I had something personal with them. But I was just annoyed to observe that dangerous trend of wannabe rebelious acts without real purpose around the net, that everyone praises, everybody heard a lot about (myths and again myths actually), everybody talks about each day, with so predictable words that becomes a so erroneous, so common opinion that it gets deadly annoying (I am to serious and bound to the truth, that's it ;P). And I stated my disagreement with all this fuzz about "hackers" and since I was as much a confusing writer as exactly now, there came misunderstandings and they immediatelly filtered me as one of the others in the media who said these shit that hackers are criminals and stuff. But I didn't wanted to say that, rather than the fact that "Hey,. something's going wrong with the world here!". But was it only with "hackers" anyways???
(Of course I know that there was teh real hackers who were doing something that had nothing at all to do by what the mainstream thinks when he hears "that hacker hacked my PC" and teh shit. Of course I know,. but they did confused me because I had a bad way of saying things with crazy texts. It's a cojnfusde thigs general anyays..)
p.p.s. This text went crazy but I didn't cared as always. In few words, what's your opinion on 1) that scene series, 2) the funny fact that everybody calls their scene, the scene, 3) scene in the very mainstream would distort it? (I wouldn't beleive that, but would be scared to thought of the bad effects of FBI messing it up oneday and confusing the demoscene to the illegal scenes, and suddenly bumping into a demoparty and messing up with the (demo)sceners, that's just a scary fiction, 4) "hacker" trend in general..
But I think that this trhead will end up in STFU or BASS though because I make the mistake to write weird but that's how it comes now so I didn't cared,. nevertheless when was the last time we had an interesting discussion on the Pouet BBS? I rarely browse, I am deadly bored anymore..
I also hate when the hacker scene makes a distinction of "hackers" from hackers (or ""hackers"" from "hackers" so I like to say ;) by using the word "crackers". There is already a cracking scene having nothing to do with this..
And then I was thinking if a series about the demoscene would be a good thing at the end. At a first glance I was exited by such news but then again wouldn't such mainstream distort the idea behind our scene as we know it? Who needs to watch series anyways, when we already know it by heart? (just visit a demoparty and get drunk, not?! ;). That would be aiming to the mainstream so it might be bad. Perhaps only a serious documentary upon the demoscene would be something that I would love to see..
p.s. What's your opinion about "hackers" btw? This scene once bothered me for some strange reasons (some of you may remember my confused message on csipd), I was so crazy about those discussion as I had something personal with them. But I was just annoyed to observe that dangerous trend of wannabe rebelious acts without real purpose around the net, that everyone praises, everybody heard a lot about (myths and again myths actually), everybody talks about each day, with so predictable words that becomes a so erroneous, so common opinion that it gets deadly annoying (I am to serious and bound to the truth, that's it ;P). And I stated my disagreement with all this fuzz about "hackers" and since I was as much a confusing writer as exactly now, there came misunderstandings and they immediatelly filtered me as one of the others in the media who said these shit that hackers are criminals and stuff. But I didn't wanted to say that, rather than the fact that "Hey,. something's going wrong with the world here!". But was it only with "hackers" anyways???
(Of course I know that there was teh real hackers who were doing something that had nothing at all to do by what the mainstream thinks when he hears "that hacker hacked my PC" and teh shit. Of course I know,. but they did confused me because I had a bad way of saying things with crazy texts. It's a cojnfusde thigs general anyays..)
p.p.s. This text went crazy but I didn't cared as always. In few words, what's your opinion on 1) that scene series, 2) the funny fact that everybody calls their scene, the scene, 3) scene in the very mainstream would distort it? (I wouldn't beleive that, but would be scared to thought of the bad effects of FBI messing it up oneday and confusing the demoscene to the illegal scenes, and suddenly bumping into a demoparty and messing up with the (demo)sceners, that's just a scary fiction, 4) "hacker" trend in general..
But I think that this trhead will end up in STFU or BASS though because I make the mistake to write weird but that's how it comes now so I didn't cared,. nevertheless when was the last time we had an interesting discussion on the Pouet BBS? I rarely browse, I am deadly bored anymore..
the scene used to be one, the computer scene. therefor all computer culture scenes are part of _the scene_. and ofcourse our subculture is the most important one.
some hackers call other hackers crackers instead of hackers couz of the missconception that cracking a password is a hacking skill, while its not.
in the old days sceners were usually also crackers, then the artfaggots came on the scene and it all went to shit.
*bass*
some hackers call other hackers crackers instead of hackers couz of the missconception that cracking a password is a hacking skill, while its not.
in the old days sceners were usually also crackers, then the artfaggots came on the scene and it all went to shit.
*bass*
we're THE scene. others can stand in line.
i'm not sure the scene is only the computer scene. i've heard "cinema scene", and maybe "drug scene", scene seems to be just like "kind of world" for me.
but it's logic that people "belonging" to one special scene will call it the scene.
but it's logic that people "belonging" to one special scene will call it the scene.
i'm waiting for keops to comment on this with his hot steamy offer
>the scene used to be one, the computer scene
Other than that, there are scenes outside the computer scene that call themself "the scene", take for example this link I found on the slashdot discussion. Of course you might already know that :), but I just wanted to take the chance to post this link (No really, I don't hate goths, I don't want kb to kill me ;), I just found it hillarious and i HAD to post it here =) (Should I stop using smileys so frequently and also smiles inside smiley parenthesis? ;P
>some hackers call other hackers crackers instead of hackers couz of the missconception that cracking a password is a hacking skill, while its not.
Interesting, I hadn't thought/heard of this explanation, rather than the other one: "crack=destroying stuff". However I still wanted to ask what that means more precisely? My bet is: hacking is not that speciality in gaining access to a server (either by cracking the password, stealing it or by any other means) or any similar activities as the mainstream knows it. But it's just doing amazing shit with coding regardless the field. But then it's a very subjective which nobody dares to use for himself, so there is no such a thing as a hacking scene cause that could only mean the well known scene. And well, I prefer this, for the last hacker is dead since ages (A lovely article I was reading in a Pain issue possibly?). There is no thing called "hacking scene" today that would get any respect from me, because it's just simply again the well known hacking scene as everybody has learned to know it..
Other than that, there are scenes outside the computer scene that call themself "the scene", take for example this link I found on the slashdot discussion. Of course you might already know that :), but I just wanted to take the chance to post this link (No really, I don't hate goths, I don't want kb to kill me ;), I just found it hillarious and i HAD to post it here =) (Should I stop using smileys so frequently and also smiles inside smiley parenthesis? ;P
>some hackers call other hackers crackers instead of hackers couz of the missconception that cracking a password is a hacking skill, while its not.
Interesting, I hadn't thought/heard of this explanation, rather than the other one: "crack=destroying stuff". However I still wanted to ask what that means more precisely? My bet is: hacking is not that speciality in gaining access to a server (either by cracking the password, stealing it or by any other means) or any similar activities as the mainstream knows it. But it's just doing amazing shit with coding regardless the field. But then it's a very subjective which nobody dares to use for himself, so there is no such a thing as a hacking scene cause that could only mean the well known scene. And well, I prefer this, for the last hacker is dead since ages (A lovely article I was reading in a Pain issue possibly?). There is no thing called "hacking scene" today that would get any respect from me, because it's just simply again the well known hacking scene as everybody has learned to know it..
And my ask for a more precise definition came because there is still a whole misconception behind the thing imho:
e.g. There comes a kid who is into the usual "cracking password, changing website and being cool" specific scene and replies to my scepticism on the false respect and purpose (imho) behind the whole "hacking" trend with: "No! You misunderstood us. Don't think what the mass media say! These do not belong in us. They are "crackers". We are hackers, the brilliant minds who will rebel and change the world and stuff."
But the mass media shows off exactly what you do and calls it a "hacker", creates a trend that each of you continue spreading, people respect your silly acts because they mess the name with the original definition of true coders, trend and so you feel cool with those useless "hacking" actions on the net with no purpose, that's my problem. Blatant respent for purposeless and annoying acts, protected by the name "hacker" itself which makes eveyrone to feel awe, a whole dangerously stupid trend still spreading, confusing the whole matter more. The more confused it is, the more can "hackers" use this as their camouflage for justifying (and overpraising even) their acts..
Or I am just sounding like EP but it's not easy to say it all in a shell ;)
e.g. There comes a kid who is into the usual "cracking password, changing website and being cool" specific scene and replies to my scepticism on the false respect and purpose (imho) behind the whole "hacking" trend with: "No! You misunderstood us. Don't think what the mass media say! These do not belong in us. They are "crackers". We are hackers, the brilliant minds who will rebel and change the world and stuff."
But the mass media shows off exactly what you do and calls it a "hacker", creates a trend that each of you continue spreading, people respect your silly acts because they mess the name with the original definition of true coders, trend and so you feel cool with those useless "hacking" actions on the net with no purpose, that's my problem. Blatant respent for purposeless and annoying acts, protected by the name "hacker" itself which makes eveyrone to feel awe, a whole dangerously stupid trend still spreading, confusing the whole matter more. The more confused it is, the more can "hackers" use this as their camouflage for justifying (and overpraising even) their acts..
Or I am just sounding like EP but it's not easy to say it all in a shell ;)
crack=heaven on earth
Quisten: That's the only thing I would like to approve oneday ;)
well, hackers find vulnerabiliities, crackers abuse them.
they're hand in hand in the end. general public just got too used to calling someone a hacker whomever can make your computer do something it wasnt supposed to.
you can thank the media for the miss-education.
they're hand in hand in the end. general public just got too used to calling someone a hacker whomever can make your computer do something it wasnt supposed to.
you can thank the media for the miss-education.
and about _the scene_, there is only one real scene and thats the gay peruvian bukake scene!
for me cracking always meant to break protection, either copy, access, authentication. not actually destroying things.
it might have other ramifications that i never personally considered as beeing valid though.
it might have other ramifications that i never personally considered as beeing valid though.
>for me cracking always meant to break protection, either copy, access, authentication. not actually destroying things.
I totally agree with that..
>well, hackers find vulnerabiliities, crackers abuse them.
I have heard this too. It's ok. Except from the question "what does it mean abuse?". First of all I can only think of crackers from the cracking scene who put infinitive lifes in games and stuff (abusing?). But this separation inside the hacking scene once came to me like: "The hackers are those who break passwords, access permission to servers and just look around but the ethics are to not steal, destroy or change anything". The "crackers" definition was given to people who didn't respect the last rules..
>general public just got too used to calling someone a hacker whomever can make your computer do something it wasnt supposed to.
Still, it depends what you want to say with that phrase. If it's all about doing real coder's magic (what your computer is not supposed to do), then that's the valid definition of hacking for me.
I totally agree with that..
>well, hackers find vulnerabiliities, crackers abuse them.
I have heard this too. It's ok. Except from the question "what does it mean abuse?". First of all I can only think of crackers from the cracking scene who put infinitive lifes in games and stuff (abusing?). But this separation inside the hacking scene once came to me like: "The hackers are those who break passwords, access permission to servers and just look around but the ethics are to not steal, destroy or change anything". The "crackers" definition was given to people who didn't respect the last rules..
>general public just got too used to calling someone a hacker whomever can make your computer do something it wasnt supposed to.
Still, it depends what you want to say with that phrase. If it's all about doing real coder's magic (what your computer is not supposed to do), then that's the valid definition of hacking for me.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=abuse
a·buse Audio pronunciation of "abuse" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-byz)
tr.v. a·bused, a·bus·ing, a·bus·es
1. To use wrongly or improperly; misuse: abuse alcohol; abuse a privilege.
2. To hurt or injure by maltreatment; ill-use.
3. To force sexual activity on; rape or molest.
4. To assail with contemptuous, coarse, or insulting words; revile.
5. Obsolete. To deceive or trick.
n. (-bys)
1. Improper use or handling; misuse: abuse of authority; drug abuse.
2. Physical maltreatment: spousal abuse.
3. Sexual abuse.
4. An unjust or wrongful practice: a government that commits abuses against its citizens.
5. Insulting or coarse language: verbal abuse.
a·buse Audio pronunciation of "abuse" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-byz)
tr.v. a·bused, a·bus·ing, a·bus·es
1. To use wrongly or improperly; misuse: abuse alcohol; abuse a privilege.
2. To hurt or injure by maltreatment; ill-use.
3. To force sexual activity on; rape or molest.
4. To assail with contemptuous, coarse, or insulting words; revile.
5. Obsolete. To deceive or trick.
n. (-bys)
1. Improper use or handling; misuse: abuse of authority; drug abuse.
2. Physical maltreatment: spousal abuse.
3. Sexual abuse.
4. An unjust or wrongful practice: a government that commits abuses against its citizens.
5. Insulting or coarse language: verbal abuse.
so obviously, anything from slightly looking into something you shouldnt be perusing, all the way to salvagly forcing your way into the holiest of holiest places (i.e. another persons HD or code)
Ok. I can understand it in a more abstract way. True hackers are like geniouses (regardless the field), crackers (or a better word because I still dislike the use of this word, for it beelongs in the cracking scene) are just lamers who abuse the hacker's works (simply use them for a wrong purpose). The only problem is that people in the "hacking" scene still confuse things or use these abstractions as they fit them, so sometimes some things have to be clearly defined to them..
http://www.welcometotehscene.com/ of course!
Wasn't it in Alvin Toffler's "Future Shock" where he discusses how society will break up into shitloads of subcultures? (Among other things.) I think so, and it would seem apparent he was correct.
And that's the only semi-intelligent thing I can add to this discussion. So sorry.
And that's the only semi-intelligent thing I can add to this discussion. So sorry.
thom: yah.
thom: and then there is system shock where you can hack vending machines and keylocks. -_-
ps: word
That's interesting Thom. Is that a book or something?
hmm.,.. my understanding was more like this:
People who break access systems/copy protection/passwords etc: crackers
People who break into servers/steal or change info there/deface stuff/just see if they can get in: hackers if they do the work themselves, find vulnerabilities, make tools to help then do it. If they use other people's tools, info they find on the net etc, they're script kiddies rather than proper hackers.
There's a whole lot of grey area between the three groups.. hackers have to crack passwords sometimes, crackers have to hack into the program to find how to break the code, and between script kiddies and "real" hackers there's only a difference in skill.
As to whether or not its a good/bad thing... depends entirely on what they're doing. Script kiddies taking control of other people's pcs and trashing them.. thats generally a bad thing. Hackers breaking into banks and stealing loads of money.. bad thing. DDOS attacks.. bad thing. The only really good things to come out of it are the groups who hack sites etc, don't do any damage, and publish details of the vulnerabilities.. thats generally pretty useful. Anyway, i'd prefer a group like that to do it than a hacker that intended to do some serious harm :)
People who break access systems/copy protection/passwords etc: crackers
People who break into servers/steal or change info there/deface stuff/just see if they can get in: hackers if they do the work themselves, find vulnerabilities, make tools to help then do it. If they use other people's tools, info they find on the net etc, they're script kiddies rather than proper hackers.
There's a whole lot of grey area between the three groups.. hackers have to crack passwords sometimes, crackers have to hack into the program to find how to break the code, and between script kiddies and "real" hackers there's only a difference in skill.
As to whether or not its a good/bad thing... depends entirely on what they're doing. Script kiddies taking control of other people's pcs and trashing them.. thats generally a bad thing. Hackers breaking into banks and stealing loads of money.. bad thing. DDOS attacks.. bad thing. The only really good things to come out of it are the groups who hack sites etc, don't do any damage, and publish details of the vulnerabilities.. thats generally pretty useful. Anyway, i'd prefer a group like that to do it than a hacker that intended to do some serious harm :)
