pouët.net

http://www.linuxforums.org/misc/open_source_will_never_die.html

Is it just me or has the demoscene really not been open source? Sure, it's been free distribution of code, but it's always been fairly rare to see source code dealt out with releases, right? And for sure, I've not really seen any GPL'd demos that have been at a major party...

Thoughts?

we dont support communism

nor do we support socialism or capitalism, and definately not totalitariansm.

basically, the scene's source codes have been a combination of "no you can't see it" "pay me and you can see it" and "you wanna see it? ok here ya go" and "I lost it."

Mainly though, we've been "here's the idea, now do it yourself." That conflicts with the Open Source thing in so many ways that it's just awesome.

I've always given out my sources to anyone who asks for them. Proper source releases will come some day.

Flicking through my old diskbox, I actually found a disk full of Mr. Hyde's old N7 sources. God knows how it got there, but I've been thinking about handing it out as a prize on Kindergarden. It would fit the bill nicely, and Mr. Hyde being way over the Atlantic he doesn't really get a say in the matter. And there you have another category - stolen source - which is much cooler.

And yes, come to Kindergarden! It will be good fun!

Open Source Demos would suck so badly. I like the of Open Source to produce good quality applications using the power of the masses and I actually enjoy using Open Source Software.

But: demos do not work this way! Their production is not really a democratic process - much more of a dictatorship. Furthermore good demos have always been a demonstration of individual skills. When you looked at a good demo, you wanted to achieve the same effect. This was the motivating factor that got people going. This approach also required you to learn the required skills from the very beginning and was a mechanism for innovation.

In some way the scene probably gained it's wow-factor from having this darwinistic attitude. It was all about sharpening your skills.

PS: Major Release by Da Jormas is the only decent demo that I can think of which comes with the full source code . But then again it is explicitly not open source and only coming with the source for educational purpose.

Well, yes, the scene´s sourcecodes are alot like "Shit on you, code yourself!" or "What? I´m not in the scene anymore, ofcourse i took them with me in my grave.". For Demos, okay. but for some certain cool demo tools this is not very healthy.

I once wanted to get the sources of Excess Deluxe paint. Megus asked a guy who was in excess (Spectrum). That guy found the coder months later who didnt have them anymore. Me and afew friends just wanted to hack it so it uses a mouse instead of Keyboard only... So many really older, but really cool applications for making graphics, sound editors and such things are impossible to port (From C64 to Plus/4 for example) or to hack in new features (Like Mouse Support, using instruments from other editors).

Now how do i ask a coder to disassemble a tool that he finds useless and hack in new feats or port it? I should continue on learning hot to do that by myself, that would be a quicker way... :P

noname: That would be the old "if you make it easier to re-use other people's work, the demoscene will suffocate in a truck-load of identical demos" argument that's been applied to werkkzeug, V2, demopaja, OSDM, Boris Vallejo... it doesn't fly. Whatever resources exist on the scene, there will always be talented people who use those resources for new innovative things and get remembered for it, and people who just reinvent what's been done before and get forgotten. The only difference is that the talentless ones are now making 64Ks with glowing rubber ducks in Werkkzeug, rather than making fake rasterbars in DarkBasic.

I've been releasing sources for my demos, generally under a Creative Commons licence (when I remember to stick a licence on them at all) because that seems to make more sense for mixed-media works than the GPL does. I don't know if anyone's ever going to use that source for anything more than educational purposes (or possibly fixing my broken code to work on Russian Spectrum clones / iPod minis) but if one day someone does come up with a fantastic idea for remixing my stuff, then they can do right ahead.

The idea of open source demos is just wrong in so many ways.

the scene = social competition
open source = antisocial cooperation

The two could hardly be less compatible so get over it. Besides, if you need sources, just ask Stingray. He will disassemble some source code for you. He likes doing that.

So, Stingray, you hard it? I need the sources of Excess Deluxe Paint (the last version) from Excess(Spectrum). Preferrably as Hobeta files or on a .TAP image. Thank you. ;-)

Stingray a.k.a. "Stingrey"? hahahaha.

yeah, what doom said.. there's too much 'rivalry' and competitional aspects between demogroups. Open source would threaten certain advantages. e.g. flt has a neat 64k synth, which worths their 64k up a bit compared to other good - but not good enough - 64k synths. people who are capable enough should be able to reproduce such a synth without the code being openly available while in worst case scenario the others would just copy it 1:1. So in the end there's no real benefit from the whole opensourcing...

Related to that. It is more respectful (and rewarding for them i guess too) to see people who can knock a kickass demo together without 'borrowing stuff'.

the article is severely misguided.

Anyone got the source code for Buzz?

Isn't it pretty common for the 256b PC-stuff to come with sourcecode?

Releasing sources .. I can only see one single advantage: it makes it possible to port it to other platforms without having to deal with things like waiting for an hypothetical emulator.

But as far as learning and stealing (and other things that only geniuses do) it's far more of an effort, and an effective one at that, to actually communicate your methods and secrets. Like people do during seminars. Or maybe in articles.

[quote]
That would be the old "if you make it easier to re-use other people's work, the demoscene will suffocate in a truck-load of identical demos" argument that's been applied to werkkzeug, V2, demopaja, OSDM, Boris Vallejo... it doesn't fly.
[\quote]
Maybe not suffocation, but I cannot remember a werkzueg-demo that has been breaking barriers either. Also, when you use demotools like those, the demo will not have a soul.

Archmage: Scandal! Scandal! You know Archmage/andromeda? He is a thief! Voleur! Tjuv! You think twice about those sources, old "friend". You see, I have a copy of some of your old works. You know, the "adult" stuff from '91? Yeeees, you thought they would never reappear, did you? Well, they just might. They just might.

I agree with Maali. I also prefer just to watch the visuals instead of some boring bubblegum hacked sources so I can keep swindling myself that the effect isn't faked.

A bit off the topic, but here's one of the first comments to the article:

" Would you like to see us all out of job?

Written by Joe on 2006-11-01 02:00:22

Would you like to see us all out of job? If not plz stop now. Stop all the open source movement. You're not only destroying Microsoft, but you are also putting the thousands of programmers out of jobs and creative micro independent software vendors out of business. What do you gain at the end? Your little ego boost and recognition? Come on guys, have you ever seen open-cars, open-handphones, open-watches, etc? Why open-source then? If this continues, the there will be no more creativity and innovation in software industry."

roffel

Anyway, was the original sound tracker really open source? The article writer thinks so.

HAHA, the comments to this article are all comedy gold:

"This is a fact of life, there's no free lunch in this world. Since you were born, before software was invented, everything in this world was for sale. This is how the economy sustains. Imagine if every stupid and brainless programmer (like those open-source idiots) writes software for free and gets paid nothing, who the hell want to study computer science anymore? So, no programmers will be produced, and no software will be written anymore. "

Yes, stupid and brainless programmers are sure to be able to compete with "real" programmers.

linde:

I think I'm the fiendish giant variety of Scandinavian.

And also, the problem with open-source applications is that when people work for free, they tend to code all the fun stuff and leave the not so fun stuff undone. Stuff like UIs, config tools, installers and documentation.

So anyway.

It looks like if some people just doesn't understand that open source is a big business. Maybe you don't get paid for the software itself, but custom maintenance is the key.

in reality demos are free, whereas most opensource software is sold.

just to correct the line this thread is running upon.

I can't see why whould anyone want open source demos. Sure you can see how some effects are done, but sceners are like Ronins (Rurouni Kenshin Cof... Cof) that learn all by themselves. It's about competition. Of course there is no real harm but people get to sloppy in trying to find already done stuff.

YEs I've been looking at some open source Atari demos. But most stuff is "impossible" to understand, it just serves to to get an idea.