vc express 2010
category: code [glöplog]
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gargaj: if you think the bulk of commercially developed software is games, demos and photoshop then you have a really twisted idea about reality.
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that's for end-user PC applications btw. i'm not considering the software in your TV and iphone apps and the likes.
:P
oh, and back on topic and to what ryg and kb said: the real reason people still didn't manage to make a decent c++ IDE is because c++ is just too rotten to make a decent IDE for.
clearly, the day it will be feasible to make a usable c++ IDE with all the magic features developers want and need will be the day even the processors in washing machines are so fast that they can be programmed in ruby. c++ == crap coding experience.
clearly, the day it will be feasible to make a usable c++ IDE with all the magic features developers want and need will be the day even the processors in washing machines are so fast that they can be programmed in ruby. c++ == crap coding experience.
kb, still the bulk of software made is web stuff and office automation, not iphone apps. hardly anyone makes iphone apps or TV software. the people who do are just more in magazines.
kb, plus, if you dev TV software, you have significantly worse development problems than the fact that your visual assist is a bit slow :-)
(like, virtually no debugging facility whatsoever - printf debugging is a luxury!)
(like, virtually no debugging facility whatsoever - printf debugging is a luxury!)
btw, sorry for letting my frustration take over.
Who needs debugging anyway?
I think it's way easier not to write buggy code in the first place :)
I think it's way easier not to write buggy code in the first place :)
kb> weird, I never experienced any slowness in XCode and the mbp I'm using is 4 years old
skrebbel: I think macaw intended to write "VS 2010 Express" instead of vc?
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killer, next you'll advocate using a separate build system and debugger.
You know, it may actually happen that Visual Studio's build system is not enough...at work we write software for multiple Windows CE based targets, and hell no, we don't maintain their different compiler/linker/whatever settings using the Visual Studio Project Settings Dialog. We have our solutions generated by MPC. I like MPC so much I adopted it for use even at home, where I don't really have the problems we solve with it at work (i.e. shitloads of targets).
As for debuggers: what pan said. And a few well-placed tracing messages are usually way more effective than a debugger, and I've worked with enough targets where tracing was about the only way to reliably get information out of the system.
MPC?
Make Project Creator, something similar to cmake. We use it at work to generate VS projects and solutions, because we have that many targets where this CPU needs FOO defined to compile lib X and that CPU needs BAR defined to compile lib Y that it's just no fun to manage everything directly inside VS.
At home I use MPC + Microsoft Compilers + Slickedit and I'm happy with it.
So I lied. We don't do everything with VS2010. We use a frontend to simplify build configuration management.
Still, the single most important tool when writing code is obviously your text editor, and when Visual Studio's text editor doesn't suit your needs, get another one and stop whining.
At home I use MPC + Microsoft Compilers + Slickedit and I'm happy with it.
So I lied. We don't do everything with VS2010. We use a frontend to simplify build configuration management.
Still, the single most important tool when writing code is obviously your text editor, and when Visual Studio's text editor doesn't suit your needs, get another one and stop whining.
scons
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Still, the single most important tool when writing code is obviously your text editor, and when Visual Studio's text editor doesn't suit your needs, get another one and stop whining.
Which is exactly my point. If a "development environment" isn't usable for text editing and its build system sucks, it's not really a development environment anymore, more like a ridiculously overcomplicated launch shell for the debugger.
If a tool gets so off track that it becomes painful to use for its primary purpose, that's definitely something to complain about.
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c++ == crap coding experience.
That's because the larger part of C++ programmers are a bunch of idiots who can't use the language right or, let me put it this way: are imcompetent idiots.
There are a lot of things wrong with different environments, compilers, standard adherence and things that should be standard by now (like atomic vector variables for SIMD) but in the end it's a pretty fine and fun language. You just need to use it when there's a reason for it and use it right.
All part of the "right tool for the right job" thing.
Stop pissing on C++ because it's old. Hammers are old too. So are bicycles, stoves, tables, doorknobs and pencils. It just happens to be easier to hold a pencil than to use a precision cutter.
killer, you do know that VS projects have inheritance of project setting since many versions. at my old work we did something similar to what you do, and then some ... it was all replaced by visual studio projects and heavy use of property inheritance and voila - every one was able to alter settings without leaving the IDE :)
plek, Java and C# are actually old too :-)
By that metric, even Ruby is friggin' ancient. ;)
macaw: it so happens though that I did not refer to any other language than C++, so I don't see why you felt you needed to make that remark ;)
I would still argue that C is a far better language than C++. And that age does not really matter, with the amount of mindless reinvention we see in our fields.
What exactly is it that makes you prefer C? I can think of quite a few things myself (a big one of them being that in my line of work C++ has had the tendency to bring more trouble than profit because of aforementioned difficulty and programmer incompetence, but that's just from a commercial point of view) . But I'd like to hear yours.
I have been always really happy with the VS series (VC6, VS2005 and VS2008 now), zero complains, so much better than anything else I have seen so far. I'm not sure what you guys are speaking about.
Yes, I know about project settings inheritance. The external tool approach works better for us, and it has the neat advantage that you can generate project files for multiple VS versions, which we occasionally need to do (due to older software still being maintained and extended with the tools it was originally developed with).
I'm with iq on this one. Every version since VC6 was more than "ok" for me. Now using VS2008 express and I'm very happy.
IQ: completely agree. For all but one project (Wii, required CodeWarrior since Sony bought up SN) I/we've always used VS as an editor / external build system launcher and if possible, debugger. XCode and CodeWarrior is so much worse, not to start about Eclipse. I've installed NetBeans on my Mac to dev. some C++ stuff, but I yet have to see if that's any good. That's how much I hate XCode ;)
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There are a lot of things wrong with different environments, compilers, standard adherence and things that should be standard by now (like atomic vector variables for SIMD) but in the end it's a pretty fine and fun language. You just need to use it when there's a reason for it and use it right.
I wouldn't mind some shader like math intrinsics extension on C/C++.
