joining a group
category: general [glöplog]
What are pros and cons? Why some guys never do this?
Pros:
-teamwork
-resources as in
-graphics (graphicians)
-musics (musicians)
-code (coders)
Cons:
-teamwork
-no resources
Matter of choice! If you think you are proficient in all fields yourself and are a control-freak ontop maybe, you name yourself Alone_Coder and stay just this forever! ;)
(sorry, your name invited to make a stupid pun...)
Matter of Choice! If you think you could have more fun in a Team, working on stuff together, you join a Group and see where it goes, leaving is always an option anyway! ;)
With some it´s a question of being shy or not, introvert or extrovert...
...others decide to stay alone for reasons that are legit!
It all depends on who you are and what you want to do and what your capabilities are, etc.
If you want to join a group, dont hesitate to contact some groups, most of em have someone doing the job of "organizer", apply with some example-work (pouet-links, dropbox-binaries, whatever) and see where this leads you!
Be sure to apply at your favourite group first (being the one you think you would fit in most at this point of time!), but also dont hesitate to apply to several (if not all groups there are) groups at once...
...it´s the same as in RealLife...get denies and accepts back, choose wisely where and with whom you want to "work" ;)
The Scene is not RealLife, so simply put questions in your applications like: "What are your future plans for releases?" or "What sort of productions could i be part of, if i joined your crew?" ;)
You are a Coder, you got what i tried to imply you! ;)
Hope you find your desired "workplace" in the scene! ;)
Good Luck!
-teamwork
-resources as in
-graphics (graphicians)
-musics (musicians)
-code (coders)
Cons:
-teamwork
-no resources
Matter of choice! If you think you are proficient in all fields yourself and are a control-freak ontop maybe, you name yourself Alone_Coder and stay just this forever! ;)
(sorry, your name invited to make a stupid pun...)
Matter of Choice! If you think you could have more fun in a Team, working on stuff together, you join a Group and see where it goes, leaving is always an option anyway! ;)
With some it´s a question of being shy or not, introvert or extrovert...
...others decide to stay alone for reasons that are legit!
It all depends on who you are and what you want to do and what your capabilities are, etc.
If you want to join a group, dont hesitate to contact some groups, most of em have someone doing the job of "organizer", apply with some example-work (pouet-links, dropbox-binaries, whatever) and see where this leads you!
Be sure to apply at your favourite group first (being the one you think you would fit in most at this point of time!), but also dont hesitate to apply to several (if not all groups there are) groups at once...
...it´s the same as in RealLife...get denies and accepts back, choose wisely where and with whom you want to "work" ;)
The Scene is not RealLife, so simply put questions in your applications like: "What are your future plans for releases?" or "What sort of productions could i be part of, if i joined your crew?" ;)
You are a Coder, you got what i tried to imply you! ;)
Hope you find your desired "workplace" in the scene! ;)
Good Luck!
from my POV:
pros: plenty free socks but all in the wrong size
cons: ppl telling you what to do (usually brainless ones like former swappers), risk of getting kicked out of group again, have to give up votekey to group leader every party, have to pay contribution, risk of being seen as organised crime syndicate when group also has cracking division, working for the glory of a group founded most likely by braindead amiga swappers 25 years ago and not your own, have to bend over for group leaders who are probably in no way capable of making a demo themselves but think they're important enough to have a say in development regardless, etc etc
pros: plenty free socks but all in the wrong size
cons: ppl telling you what to do (usually brainless ones like former swappers), risk of getting kicked out of group again, have to give up votekey to group leader every party, have to pay contribution, risk of being seen as organised crime syndicate when group also has cracking division, working for the glory of a group founded most likely by braindead amiga swappers 25 years ago and not your own, have to bend over for group leaders who are probably in no way capable of making a demo themselves but think they're important enough to have a say in development regardless, etc etc
ah yeah, former swapper is another word for organiser ofcourse
(this is why i still call myself a graphics guy, srsly)
(this is why i still call myself a graphics guy, srsly)
I think there are more coders wanting to join a group which has a graphician than graphicians wanting to join a group which has a coder... Because graphician can release on its own (gfx compos, deviantart, pixeljoint, drawing for money) and coder can't (except for tiny intros that are not as interesting).
(writing for general usage of this thread in the future now)
If this all sounds too professional to you, maybe joining irc-chat is your way to go!
Start at #revision in IRCnet maybe and work yourself thru #whois xxx to the group-channels (whois also lists in which other channels ppl idle around! simply join those if you want to learn more!), see if ppl comply to yourself and what you want! ;) (also known as stalking, but real demosceners dont care anyway! ;) )
[/another thread pouetized!]
If this all sounds too professional to you, maybe joining irc-chat is your way to go!
Start at #revision in IRCnet maybe and work yourself thru #whois xxx to the group-channels (whois also lists in which other channels ppl idle around! simply join those if you want to learn more!), see if ppl comply to yourself and what you want! ;) (also known as stalking, but real demosceners dont care anyway! ;) )
[/another thread pouetized!]
havoc:
Strange, what sort of picture you have there! ;) maybe what you had to live thru doesnt apply to everyone! :p ;) I knew i shouldn´t have had the "dont ever visit #trsi as there´s only the most disgusting part of the scene to be found...[...]" deleted before awaiting responses to this! ;)
Alone Coder:
Your picture is wrong aswell!
As i ALWAYS got the scene is like:
Every group needs (good) coders...and 2D-graphicians(nowadays!) (half point given!)
Most of the groups would give about _20 musicians_/_10 3d-artists_/_3 graphicians_ for a coder...this formula applied like this in all my (almost)25 years of active scenism (except the 3d-artists, they came up in 1993 first!)
Strange, what sort of picture you have there! ;) maybe what you had to live thru doesnt apply to everyone! :p ;) I knew i shouldn´t have had the "dont ever visit #trsi as there´s only the most disgusting part of the scene to be found...[...]" deleted before awaiting responses to this! ;)
Alone Coder:
Your picture is wrong aswell!
As i ALWAYS got the scene is like:
Every group needs (good) coders...and 2D-graphicians(nowadays!) (half point given!)
Most of the groups would give about _20 musicians_/_10 3d-artists_/_3 graphicians_ for a coder...this formula applied like this in all my (almost)25 years of active scenism (except the 3d-artists, they came up in 1993 first!)
@havoc: I probably have an inkling who you're talking about xD
Quote:
I don't know, I think it's still all personal taste. I am not entirely convinced joining a group is merely (or entirely) due to releases and productions, so just because they could present their own work doesn't mean that's the reason for staying by themselves. Plus there may be enough coop opportunities with other people / groups to not really consider joining any. There's plenty of cross-group prods that happen just because several people from each just decided to work together.by Alone_Coder:
I think there are more coders wanting to join a group which has a graphician than graphicians wanting to join a group which has a coder... Because graphician can release on its own (gfx compos, deviantart, pixeljoint, drawing for money) and coder can't (except for tiny intros that are not as interesting).
I claim to be part of my own, but really it was only because I somehow felt I should at the time for a release at Revision 2013. The reality is I don't have to, and honestly most people went "Well why didn't you say you were also in Nectarine?" or "Why didn't you release it under Nectarine?"* so there's at least one group** ... and I also hang out in #scenesat, tune in occasionally, and listen to party streams when it suits. So the reality is without even really doing anything I'm part of at least two groups without needing my own.
* I didn't think it was as good as other demos so I'd have rather not tarnished the Nectarine group name, but what can I say? (more on this after the next aside)
** A bunch of us sat together at Revision 2013 and '14 as well as some who've banded together to release music disks and such which are listed under Nectarine here on Pouet. Though likely many people still consider it just another website, like Pouet (there's no Poueteers that I know of).
I don't really do the kinds of things other people releasing stuff do and honestly while I probably could learn to do things leading toward stuff I see and be able to "get the things in my head out", I don't force myself to spend the time. And I think that's okay. I do other things, which don't really offer the kinds of things people or groups who are release-oriented want or need. Thus there's no real reason for me to seek out a group other than to say "Yay, I'm part of a well known group. Whee.", which I think is a bit self-centered and ego-feeding. So I don't. Would I say no if someone/some-group asked? Likely not, and I don't think I'd feel the same with it going the other direction. If they want to have me, why not. But do I care nobody asks? Not in the least.
Anyway, that's my 2¢ (which isn't worth a whole lot today, can't even buy anything with that.)
What would/could rule is joining a group with members in the same city. In distant groups, if you or other members are unmotivated, long time passes where no communication or no productivity. But regular group meetings in real life would be cool, even going for beers and discussing about demos. I never had this experience and don't think I will anytime soon. I am subscribed to some groups, like Dirty Minds, etc.. but it's just a label of mostly coding work I do and adding some graphics/music from collaborations in the last days :). Even then you have to organize, there might be groups in same city where everyone is not very interested, you just need one or two very obsessed sceners to get all together.
@alone_coder,
i would say that it doesn't hurt to be in the group, it can only be of a help as hardy said - you don't need to look and wait for gfx/msx, which is always a problem for us coders, especially on some more obscure platforms. also, even if there are some other coders in the group, that are less active than you, they proved to be helpful with advices, or small tweaks/improvements to your code.
also, have in mind that no one is stopping you for doing your own stuff or even collaborate with people from other groups. doing the great release usually include more that one coder/graphician/musician. (take a look at the c64 demoscene, for example). but you probably knew that by colaborating on "Mission Highly Improbable" - you've probably spent a significantly smaller amount of time for that release (comparing to the releases that you did by yourself), yet it's a great release, and your name is still proudly there in the credits.
and, if by accident you end up in the group like the one that havoc is mentioning, then you're in the wrong group, and you should quit immediately. being in the demoscene should be fun, not the torture.
i would say that it doesn't hurt to be in the group, it can only be of a help as hardy said - you don't need to look and wait for gfx/msx, which is always a problem for us coders, especially on some more obscure platforms. also, even if there are some other coders in the group, that are less active than you, they proved to be helpful with advices, or small tweaks/improvements to your code.
also, have in mind that no one is stopping you for doing your own stuff or even collaborate with people from other groups. doing the great release usually include more that one coder/graphician/musician. (take a look at the c64 demoscene, for example). but you probably knew that by colaborating on "Mission Highly Improbable" - you've probably spent a significantly smaller amount of time for that release (comparing to the releases that you did by yourself), yet it's a great release, and your name is still proudly there in the credits.
and, if by accident you end up in the group like the one that havoc is mentioning, then you're in the wrong group, and you should quit immediately. being in the demoscene should be fun, not the torture.
hehe, after bonefishs paragraph i´d like to interlude with following information:
DONT EVER JOIN A GROUP! Teh musicians will ask you all the time if their newest track wouldnt be the best for your next demo! The Graphicians will flood you with Harddisks full of graphics to be used...the swappers (oh, wait, anachronism detected!) will keep asking you for new stuff...the orgas will bite you until you are finished finally! them like sharks, you know, just harder, more rows of teeth, bigger teeth!!! ;)
I have no idea where ppl take their imaginations from or which groups they had to live in in their past, but believe me, read again what i wrote in my first "real answer" and do just this! ;) it all got pouetized once again afterwards only! ;) good job everyone btw! i am proud being one of us trolls! :D
bonefish: exactly! being in a group means you can learn from others in your field, you can swap ideas, develop on the same ideas seeing who comes up with the better idea, then restart from that point until the real winner of the effect brings THE EFFECT! ;)
Being in a Group can bring all sorts of side-effects you´d never had expected before, it´s like getting married and all of a sudden you only do what the missus says! :p ...NAH! all of a sudden theres two of you, both thinking almost the same and inventing stuff...just there can be more than 2 coders, more potential, more MORE! ;)
I really cant advise to not join a group to anyone...eventho i am that one introvert, wanting to be on my own, the only one in control, the aloneCoder...i never asked anyone in trsi for help in my code so far...but thats just me! ;) I still dont regret being in a bigger group (concerning membercount, we are about 20 by now!) , but even when it comes to music i prefer to coop with ex.members (virgill, now member of rebels, alcatraz and haujobb!) ... i guess i just had a coming-out! i am sorry for that! ;) has nothing to do with trsi btw, just with my control/selfishness! ;)
Being selfish in the demoscene is like being Straight on Christopher Street Day, your own fault if you aren´t gay! ;)
Expose yourself or dont! Art or not? Am i talking bullshit? sure, you do, yoda say would! Yoda: "Wood? already?"
DONT EVER JOIN A GROUP! Teh musicians will ask you all the time if their newest track wouldnt be the best for your next demo! The Graphicians will flood you with Harddisks full of graphics to be used...the swappers (oh, wait, anachronism detected!) will keep asking you for new stuff...the orgas will bite you until you are finished finally! them like sharks, you know, just harder, more rows of teeth, bigger teeth!!! ;)
I have no idea where ppl take their imaginations from or which groups they had to live in in their past, but believe me, read again what i wrote in my first "real answer" and do just this! ;) it all got pouetized once again afterwards only! ;) good job everyone btw! i am proud being one of us trolls! :D
bonefish: exactly! being in a group means you can learn from others in your field, you can swap ideas, develop on the same ideas seeing who comes up with the better idea, then restart from that point until the real winner of the effect brings THE EFFECT! ;)
Being in a Group can bring all sorts of side-effects you´d never had expected before, it´s like getting married and all of a sudden you only do what the missus says! :p ...NAH! all of a sudden theres two of you, both thinking almost the same and inventing stuff...just there can be more than 2 coders, more potential, more MORE! ;)
I really cant advise to not join a group to anyone...eventho i am that one introvert, wanting to be on my own, the only one in control, the aloneCoder...i never asked anyone in trsi for help in my code so far...but thats just me! ;) I still dont regret being in a bigger group (concerning membercount, we are about 20 by now!) , but even when it comes to music i prefer to coop with ex.members (virgill, now member of rebels, alcatraz and haujobb!) ... i guess i just had a coming-out! i am sorry for that! ;) has nothing to do with trsi btw, just with my control/selfishness! ;)
Being selfish in the demoscene is like being Straight on Christopher Street Day, your own fault if you aren´t gay! ;)
Expose yourself or dont! Art or not? Am i talking bullshit? sure, you do, yoda say would! Yoda: "Wood? already?"
Also, it's good to get some ready graphics/music to use for your stuff. I was always worried about the music part, cause it's important for a demo, even a tiny intro (where you can code your own procedural stuff for your 4k, but still need music) and at some point didn't have musician in Dirty Minds, but only graphician. Well, collaboration, I know have few music sources. It's a bit better, and even if you don't start a demo, you hear a new song and be inspired, like wow maybe I could make this demo with that song.
The nearer a party comes in time, the less musicians you can find for your prod!?? nah, there´s always many of those! good musicians? hard to find! musicians being able to do 4k-music in 4klang or clinkster close to a party? -> HAHA! :P
Quote:
have to give up votekey to group leader every party, have to pay contribution
Lol, this really happened didn't it? XD Oh demoscene..
hahahaha, havoc, you have to drop GROUPNAME! :D
Also, be in as many groups as possible!
Cheers,
Okkie / Poo-Brain ^ Accession ^ Limp Ninja ^ DeBrasserie ^ 5711 ^ Beastie Toys ^ Tentacle ^ RBi
Cheers,
Okkie / Poo-Brain ^ Accession ^ Limp Ninja ^ DeBrasserie ^ 5711 ^ Beastie Toys ^ Tentacle ^ RBi
and I forgot Sonsbeek!
Damnit, why haven't I ever thought of making all Dekadence-members give me their votekeys?
people even bought sourcecodes...for quite some amounts...LAMERS!
pupils even bought abonnements from the LEADING Fucks to be on top of their schoolyards...i hate everyone selling abos to kids...most likely even only the poor kids reacted to this shit to have sth to get recognized for atleast compared to the rich kids... SUCKS? i said so before! :p
Demoscene had a lot of lamers and lamers bought lameness from lamers! ;) thats all about it! I think real demosceners never even had ideas of getting that low! Why or what for if you are doing the best visuals/musics/graphics on earth (so far!) ? (or atleast trying to compete with that!)
pupils even bought abonnements from the LEADING Fucks to be on top of their schoolyards...i hate everyone selling abos to kids...most likely even only the poor kids reacted to this shit to have sth to get recognized for atleast compared to the rich kids... SUCKS? i said so before! :p
Demoscene had a lot of lamers and lamers bought lameness from lamers! ;) thats all about it! I think real demosceners never even had ideas of getting that low! Why or what for if you are doing the best visuals/musics/graphics on earth (so far!) ? (or atleast trying to compete with that!)
troll != derail != hardyTrolls.com
damn, now i said it!
damn, now i said it!
if only someone could start producing untrollable rails....this all couldn´t happen at all! ;)
I think that working in a team is fantastic, as long as everyone shares the same vision.
If there is no common vision, problems are likely to arise.
If there is no common vision, problems are likely to arise.
You don't have to be in a group to collaborate on a production, you just have to work together. I love this part of the production process, passing over early versions of a soundtrack, getting feedback, adjusting the arrangement to hit the demo and then ultimately seeing the end product.
What tends to happen though is once you start collaborating with someone, they end up asking you to join. This has happened to me twice now. When it happened the second time I was a bit worried my group mates wouldn't be too pleased about it so let them know and they were like.. Dude, we're all in 30 groups already!
h0ffman - Unstable Label ^ Focus Design ^ Elude
What tends to happen though is once you start collaborating with someone, they end up asking you to join. This has happened to me twice now. When it happened the second time I was a bit worried my group mates wouldn't be too pleased about it so let them know and they were like.. Dude, we're all in 30 groups already!
h0ffman - Unstable Label ^ Focus Design ^ Elude
Groups don't have the same strictness as they used to 20 years ago; the current "groups" nowadays are mostly just 2-3 people carrying a moniker and randomly collaborating with others. I personally feel we lost a bit of intricacy by doing that, because I used to really enjoy the aura around what certain groupnames carried, and honestly I really wish group NFO's would return, but at the same time it's not really an instrumental part of the scene I suppose in the technical sense although I guess it's easier to write one group name on the slide than 5 people.
As far as I suppose what the original question was meant to ask, i.e. working alone vs in larger groups, I think the big question is how much control do you want to keep over the project / how confident you are in what you have yourself. I've had very enjoyable but also less cathartic collaborations over the years and there's a certain charm in doing the whole thing yourself, knowing that the end result will fit what you originally wanted. Then again I see a lot of groups where the members manage together so well that's not an issue either, so I suppose the trick is finding the right people you can work together with.
As far as I suppose what the original question was meant to ask, i.e. working alone vs in larger groups, I think the big question is how much control do you want to keep over the project / how confident you are in what you have yourself. I've had very enjoyable but also less cathartic collaborations over the years and there's a certain charm in doing the whole thing yourself, knowing that the end result will fit what you originally wanted. Then again I see a lot of groups where the members manage together so well that's not an issue either, so I suppose the trick is finding the right people you can work together with.
