Interesting movie on 9/11
category: general [glöplog]
because it is not mainstream you assume it to be either inprecise, wrong, or a conspiracy theory. Why, who tought you this?
Personally i think what happens with most people is that when they even open up to the sheer amount of vile and manipulation going on, they give up. that simple. It is easyer to go into survival mode, and then by default attack anything that might shake this flimsy temporary feeling of security.
I neither belive it is ALL a conspiracy, but they are going on even in my home town in the small, and the sheer amount of them. The acceptance of this way of doing business with agreements under the table and what not, has made people forget that a conspiracy as far more than just 911, kennedy and the moon. It doesnt have to be worldwide to have worldwide impact, i have provided links in this thread allready where there is EVIDENCE, that CIA is making false flag, and rogue operations to provoke nations or manipulate theur political scene.
But they dont do this anymore, and on whoms bidding excactly. that is the hard part to find out.
Add to this an industry that seems hellbend on using as many polutants in their products as they can, and will lobby from now on and untill the cows come home not to have them banned. etc etc ec..
The sheer amount is breathtaking, and most peoples reaction is to put their head in the sand and hope it will go away, or go rather anecdotal as ID. Could be, should be, would be....
I neither belive it is ALL a conspiracy, but they are going on even in my home town in the small, and the sheer amount of them. The acceptance of this way of doing business with agreements under the table and what not, has made people forget that a conspiracy as far more than just 911, kennedy and the moon. It doesnt have to be worldwide to have worldwide impact, i have provided links in this thread allready where there is EVIDENCE, that CIA is making false flag, and rogue operations to provoke nations or manipulate theur political scene.
But they dont do this anymore, and on whoms bidding excactly. that is the hard part to find out.
Add to this an industry that seems hellbend on using as many polutants in their products as they can, and will lobby from now on and untill the cows come home not to have them banned. etc etc ec..
The sheer amount is breathtaking, and most peoples reaction is to put their head in the sand and hope it will go away, or go rather anecdotal as ID. Could be, should be, would be....
The problem with you is that you seem to think that everyone who don't agree with all the conspiracy shit you promote are automatically mainstream, non thinking, people.
I don't believe the lies that the CIA, USA or even the Dutch government tells us but neither I believe those illogical conspiracy theories that are available everywhere on the internet. The problem with most conspiracy theories is that they defy all logic, like with religion.
Most of those sites seem to be run by people who have a political agenda themselves and I don't think they would be great world leaders either. Actually, I don't see any difference in the way conspiracy theorists and governments work, both use a lot of verbal aggression to make their point and most of it is bullshit.
I don't believe the lies that the CIA, USA or even the Dutch government tells us but neither I believe those illogical conspiracy theories that are available everywhere on the internet. The problem with most conspiracy theories is that they defy all logic, like with religion.
Most of those sites seem to be run by people who have a political agenda themselves and I don't think they would be great world leaders either. Actually, I don't see any difference in the way conspiracy theorists and governments work, both use a lot of verbal aggression to make their point and most of it is bullshit.
![[self-ban]](https://content.pouet.net/avatars/intro.gif)
basically trust yourself, not david icke or alex jones. make your own decisions. if you choose to believe new-age hippy shit, go ahead. if you choose to be neocon, do your own choice. remember it's just opinions that fight, you don't need to swallow all stuff that is fed...
exactly :)
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The problem with you is that you seem to think that everyone who don't agree with all the conspiracy shit you promote are automatically mainstream, non thinking, people.
No, you are doing the opposite. You are linking the stuff i have posted, the genuine CIA related material, with fringe crackpot ufo pages.
all the conspiracy shit i promote, and that would be what excactly?
i have aired my fetish for david icke, but that is because it is so all encompassing. The real stuff that i have linked to is all well documented, you just have to take a look. It doesnt come from any one page like alex jones, the cnn or whatever, but are avaible if you want to take the time to read some of it.
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I don't believe the lies that the CIA, USA or even the Dutch government tells us but neither I believe those illogical conspiracy theories that are available everywhere on the internet.
do you see the connection you are making here?!. Between well proven and even admitted conspiracies and whatever ufo crackpot can post on the internet?
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there is a lot of assuming in what you write,
There's no assuming in suggesting that all of what's being said COULD be false. On the contrary, that's what skepticism is all about. But there's quite a bit of denial in rejecting the possibility that, even though there's a lot of controversy, there might not be anything fishy going on at all. At least the creationists have made that clear.
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a lot more assuming that i need to resort to, to defend my possition. Have you checked anything about flouride, have you followed the debate and supression of critics? Have you done this? Ofcourse you havent, it is a spinal reflex because you for some reason wants this
See, you've already made it "your position" that you have to "defend". I'm "against" you because I don't default to the assumption that something is wrong. I haven't read much about the flouride debate, but I've never said flouride is harmless, either. But even if I did go all over the internet to read up on it, that still wouldn't make me much of a biochemist, so I wouldn't have anything to add to the debate. What I can do, though, is point out when people are not being rational.
As for judging "the man" by his track record, should I judge conspiracy theorists by the same standard?
unseen say that to the boot kicking your face in at the next peacefull protest, or rally you go to.
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There's no assuming in suggesting that all of what's being said COULD be false. On the contrary, that's what skepticism is all about. But there's quite a bit of denial in rejecting the possibility that, even though there's a lot of controversy, there might not be anything fishy going on at all.
but do YOU belive this?
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I haven't read much about the flouride debate, but I've never said flouride is harmless, either
but you are allready of the oppinion that it must be some conspiracy tinfoilery becaue i said it, am i right?
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s for judging "the man" by his track record, should I judge conspiracy theorists by the same standard?
absolutely, nothing less
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but do YOU belive this?
I don't "believe" anything. I either know, or I don't know. In this case, I don't know.
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but you are allready of the oppinion that it must be some conspiracy tinfoilery becaue i said it, am i right?
I am of the opinion that you are being very irrational about it.
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absolutely, nothing less
Seriously, you want me to judge all conspiracy theorists by films like Loose Change?
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I don't "believe" anything. I either know, or I don't know. In this case, I don't know.
you dont know what it is that youre saying?
nice try there. But it is an illogical answer entirely.
you said:
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There's no assuming in suggesting that all of what's being said COULD be false. On the contrary, that's what skepticism is all about. But there's quite a bit of denial in rejecting the possibility that, even though there's a lot of controversy, there might not be anything fishy going on at all.
to which i replied. "But do you belive this?" Im obviously reffering to the statement you just made, not some general question of faith in the unseen. I hope you too can see how dishonest this comes of as.
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I am of the opinion that you are being very irrational about it.
BUt you dont want to look at the facts that i present to you, isnt that a very emotional and defensive response?. How do you make that work. And if i follow your way of reasoning, then i nowhere can you take 2 pices of evidence and work out a solution.
Cops do this all the time. And here is what is funny, they dont when it is the really big top dogs involved. If a little girl is missing, the first people the cops hassle by profession are the parents. Their main moto is "que bono", who gains, and then that is where they ask first. But in relation to 911 and other major events, this has not happened.
Other than that, in a court of law, you can be put away for life on what is called circumstantial evidence. THis means that there are not smoking gun, but all the signs points at you including obvious motiv.
You dont mind this being applied to the thug on the street, but not the powers that be. Why?
i wil rephrase my answer o the first part. How can you not know, when the evidence is there, if not out of comfort?
You see it not, because you dont really want to. You dont have to go to alex jones to see it, but a minimum of efford in seaching out legal ownerships, reading a few boring reports etc. you can reconstruct a lot of things yourself.
If you dont do this, then you're oppinion is based on predigested mumbo jumbo and i dont care if it is from JOnes, Icke, tv2, cnn, bbc or some other brand news. But you'r answer to flouride "it wouldnt not make me a biologist", shows that you have no intention to do so either.
You see it not, because you dont really want to. You dont have to go to alex jones to see it, but a minimum of efford in seaching out legal ownerships, reading a few boring reports etc. you can reconstruct a lot of things yourself.
If you dont do this, then you're oppinion is based on predigested mumbo jumbo and i dont care if it is from JOnes, Icke, tv2, cnn, bbc or some other brand news. But you'r answer to flouride "it wouldnt not make me a biologist", shows that you have no intention to do so either.
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Im obviously reffering to the statement you just made, not some general question of faith in the unseen. I hope you too can see how dishonest this comes of as.
Misunderstood you then. Yes, I know that sometimes controversy is pure bullshit, no matter how much of it there is. And I showed you a nice link to a creationist website where you can see how much controversy surrounds evolution - which doesn't, in itself, mean anything at all. It's about the quality of the alleged evidence, not the quantity.
I don't need to see the facts you present to notice that you're being irrational. As for people being convicted without evidence, why would you assume I approve of that? And I have no sympathy for the "powers that be", but what do you gain from attacking them with bullshit like Loose Change?
You do know that much of the crap in there survived, right? People are still going on about it, even though it's been thoroughly debunked by now. Because the people who debunked it are far less good at attracting attention than the people behind it. And they have a much less spectacular story to sell.
I have this own little conspiracy theory of mine, and I don't expect anyone to take it seriously, but, think about it, while all the truthers are busy looking through 9/11 footage and telling all the other truthers about their latest "discoveries" on blogs and what not, they're completely distracted from all the real crap that goes on in the world. What if you're all on a wild goose chase engineered by the government to keep you from focusing on all the real stuff they could actually be held accountable for. "Oh, the US officially approves of torture now? And they openly admit to this, you say? IT MUST BE TEH ALIENS!!"
And stop saying my opinion is biased. I don't HAVE an opinion on flouride. I'm not qualified to. And neither are you.
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Misunderstood you then. Yes, I know that sometimes controversy is pure bullshit, no matter how much of it there is. And I showed you a nice link to a creationist website where you can see how much controversy surrounds evolution - which doesn't, in itself, mean anything at all. It's about the quality of the alleged evidence, not the quantity.
i can follow your logic, this just doesnt apply to flouride or any of other poisons consumer groups are fighting a loosing battle with high profile lobbyists. And that is, as i have said but a single example of utter and total sellout from those said to protect us, and if you take the time to follow the lead, a conspiracy based on greed and the lack of care for others as usual is at the center. Like how DDT suddenly became a household name overnight with no care of possible consequences down the line, as long as it looked good on that bottomline, and that required, jumping a few legal fences here and there, shake a couple of hands etc..who cared.
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I have this own little conspiracy theory of mine, and I don't expect anyone to take it seriously, but, think about it, while all the truthers are busy looking through 9/11 footage and telling all the other truthers about their latest "discoveries" on blogs and what not, they're completely distracted from all the real crap that goes on in the world.
oh, we are in total agreement it seems. Apply this to commercial television and radio and you have a pattern going where nobody either gives a shit or a too caught up in some mental goop to take notice of everything around them being plundered.
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And stop saying my opinion is biased. I don't HAVE an opinion on flouride. I'm not qualified to. And neither are you.
appeal to authority fallacy. What you have are 2 set of experts with the same level of education saying the excact opposite of eachother. What you can now do given that you can read and reason to certain degree, is try to find out who back up these people speaking with money.
There is a good rule to follow. "No man is harder to convince of anything but the one who's salary depends on the opposite being true"
you do this same procedure every day of your life in different situations. Do you have to be a cand.polit to form an oppinion on politics? ofcourse not, so the mere notion that interrest in a subject cant bring you enlightenment is moot to say the least.
I altso want to add that it is pretty bold to deem me irrational when it is you who refuse to look at all the pointers and evidences that can be collected showing a trend, a movement towards total lockdown on personal freedoms, poorly disguised as a perversion of the free marked idea.
It can be proven boyond doubt, that CIA go in and do something somewhere, it turns into chaos, and in comes we to save the day. In the current affairs, we know without doubt that it happened in Afghanistan, in Iraq, And in Iran, the same faces involved, the same companies showered in golden blessings from above, all over the western world governments are taking the same measures, spawning one horror of a law modelled after the patriot act after the other, but this is all coincidence and good fortune for those involved?
It can be proven boyond doubt, that CIA go in and do something somewhere, it turns into chaos, and in comes we to save the day. In the current affairs, we know without doubt that it happened in Afghanistan, in Iraq, And in Iran, the same faces involved, the same companies showered in golden blessings from above, all over the western world governments are taking the same measures, spawning one horror of a law modelled after the patriot act after the other, but this is all coincidence and good fortune for those involved?
Is this the 'last person to post in this thread wins' thread?
No but thanks for the bump :)
Scepticism can be healthy, but denial of all possibility is a potentially life-threatening disease.
i hope project lucifer works and saturn will turn into huge atomic bomb and ill be waiting in cellar until all conspiracy wackos die ...
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i can follow your logic, this just doesnt apply to flouride or any of other poisons consumer groups are fighting a loosing battle with high profile lobbyists.
Logic applies either universally or not at all. And a large quantity of evidence means nothing, if that evidence is of poor quality.
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And that is, as i have said but a single example of utter and total sellout from those said to protect us, and if you take the time to follow the lead, a conspiracy based on greed and the lack of care for others as usual is at the center. Like how DDT suddenly became a household name overnight with no care of possible consequences down the line, as long as it looked good on that bottomline, and that required, jumping a few legal fences here and there, shake a couple of hands etc..who cared.
This is true, most people in power will sell you out to gain more power, and people with money can become so far removed from the rest of society that they lose their moral inhibitions. That's no secret. But you're not immune to hysteria, you know. The first thing you need, if you want to be taken seriously, is to stay grounded and act rationally. Irrational claims, such as "whoever benefits from a crime is also the perpetrator", don't solve problems. They only spread confusion, and confused people are the easiest to manipulate.
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oh, we are in total agreement it seems.
I wasn't being completely serious ;). But, whether or not "the man" is actually behind conspiracy theories like the 9/11 ones, he's certainly rubbing his hands going "excellent.. excellent.." when he saw Loose Change.
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appeal to authority fallacy.
Am I not entitled to not have an opinion? I can't possibly know enough about stuff to have a qualified opinion on everything. I could "pick a side", but I won't be forced into that.
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What you have are 2 set of experts with the same level of education saying the excact opposite of eachother. What you can now do given that you can read and reason to certain degree, is try to find out who back up these people speaking with money.
And that's the problem right there. Science has nothing do to with opinion, and reality is completely indifferent to the motives of the people who study it. A typical flaw in most conspiracy theories is that they rely on how "experts" interpret the facts, rather than on the actual facts. It's understandable, because in order to look at the facts in the flouride case, you'd need an extensive academic background in chemistry, biology and statistics, otherwise you couldn't possibly know when you're being lied to.
And who are the experts, and what do they actually believe? Again, creationists can teach you all about putting words into people's mouthes, finding false patterns, even plainly inventing stuff and making it look like it came from a reliable source. Like when Dawkins said evolution has been observed in laboratories, just never while it happens - creationists take that as evidence that evolution has never really been observed. They fail to understand what Dawkins meant because they don't know what evolution is all about.
And why do you keep acting like I condone the actions of the CIA? I hate shady government institutions. They're the worst kind. And I don't mind if you want to believe that all their schemes are part of some bigger design, to some extent that may even be true, but if it all comes down to "who do you believe?", what's the point?
wow, this discussion turned uninteresting
Cruzer:
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Logic applies either universally or not at all. And a large quantity of evidence means nothing, if that evidence is of poor quality.
Again you are trying to obscure the subject at hand. Are you saying that the evidence against flouride is of poor quality? how do you know, you dont feel qualified to even look at it?
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This is true, most people in power will sell you out to gain more power, and people with money can become so far removed from the rest of society that they lose their moral inhibitions. That's no secret.
so lets clap our hands, and wish it away? or should we deal with these people as the common thugs they truely are, regardles of fancy titles and or large income?
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Irrational claims, such as "whoever benefits from a crime is also the perpetrator", don't solve problems
Cops do this all the time. And here is what is funny, they dont when it is the really big top dogs involved. If a little girl is missing, the first people the cops hassle by profession are the parents. Their main moto is "que bono", who gains, and then that is where they ask first. But in relation to 911 and other major events, this has not happened.
Other than that, in a court of law, you can be put away for life on what is called circumstantial evidence. This means that there are no smoking gun, but all the signs points at you including obvious motiv.
What you try to pass of as poor quality evidence, the court of law reffers to as concumstantial evidence, but it is still condiered valid if there is enough of it. I allready stated this.
In a court of law where you can get sentenced to life inprisonment, they dont need the kind of evidence you require from the conspiracy movement
So who is really confused and irrational here? You know for a fact that
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This is true, most people in power will sell you out to gain more power, and people with money can become so far removed from the rest of society that they lose their moral inhibitions. That's no secret
And i can give you names who are doing just that resulting in world turmoil, but you dont want us to deal with them? why on earth not?
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Am I not entitled to not have an opinion? I can't possibly know enough about stuff to have a qualified opinion on everything. I could "pick a side", but I won't be forced into that.
yes you are, but apparently i am not qualified to have one.
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And who are the experts, and what do they actually believe?
I have named by name, mulinix teacher at harward, and can give you a long list of names with credentials in order. And i can give you the pro flouride names and the companies backing them up with cash, money. But you are not even insterrested, why not just admit to this, instead
of playing 'rational', a 'logical' whjen you are doing the very opposite of that.
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And why do you keep acting like I condone the actions of the CIA? I hate shady government institutions. They're the worst kind. And I don't mind if you want to believe that all their schemes are part of some bigger design, to some extent that may even be true, but if it all comes down to "who do you believe?", what's the point?
again youre answering as if i made sume universal claim which i didnt. Its not only a matter of who to belive, if you have the least bit of confidence in your own skills and reasoning, those can get you very far. That how i found out about flouride e.g
and the constant compare to creationists are dishonest, plain and simple. it as a false analogy, even if a can follow you logic behind posting it, which is what i meant in the last thread. I thought this was obvious.
why do i keep going on about the CIA? because they are obviously muscle for hire, not as such a government branch in the country formerly known as America. Look up "Operation PBSUCCESS", for but a single refference.
Am i to belive they have stopped this since then, or do you want newer examples aswell?
where is this all going then? to the people who started the wars (2001->), the same people whoms companies because of the war gained anourmous contracts, thus personal fortunes. The very same people blamed for being part of a war conspiracy for personal gain. The last 50 years of international political history is plastered with the same names all over the place, in different offices, organisation and or lodges. Everytime there is vile, smokescreens, and shady business, there these same people are, and the CIA.
YOu could go look at it because the actions of these people affect us all directly, or you can keep trying to be logical and rationel while they continue to fuck you up the ass while you are still not getting it, or how they are doing it.
Am i to belive they have stopped this since then, or do you want newer examples aswell?
where is this all going then? to the people who started the wars (2001->), the same people whoms companies because of the war gained anourmous contracts, thus personal fortunes. The very same people blamed for being part of a war conspiracy for personal gain. The last 50 years of international political history is plastered with the same names all over the place, in different offices, organisation and or lodges. Everytime there is vile, smokescreens, and shady business, there these same people are, and the CIA.
YOu could go look at it because the actions of these people affect us all directly, or you can keep trying to be logical and rationel while they continue to fuck you up the ass while you are still not getting it, or how they are doing it.