pouët.net

from the Pain votesheet:


Now, what I'm wondering about especially is what part of the architecture that needs to be 32bit or more for a platform to be 32bit. An Amiga (Amiga is listed as "<32bit" above) is just as much 32bit IMO as say, a 386SX (386 is listed as "32bit+") or a GBA/GP32/GP2X/Symbian Phone (not listed).

• An 68000 Amiga has 32bit accumulator, 24bit address bus, and 16bit data-bus
  
• An 68020 Amiga and up (including 060, which most amiga-demos are made for nowadays) has 32bit accumulator, 32bit address bus, and 32bit data bus.
  
• A 386 SX has 32bit accumulator 24bit address bus, and 16bit data bus
  
• A GBA has 32bit accumulator, 26bit address bus, and 16bit data bus.
  
• A GP32/GP2X/Symbian Phone has 32bit accumulator, 26bit address bus, and 32bit data bus.
  

I'm not arguing that GBA/GP32/GP2X/Symbian Phones should be considered less than 32bit, I'm questioning why the Amiga is listed as it, and I'm wondering how I extend this reasoning to other non-listed platforms. Perhaps a "full" listing is better?

I saw the votesheet and thought to myself: oh man, I haven't got all day for this. Why not stick to simle categories like best demo, best 4k and best 64k? As it stands, you have to figure out what is what (like Kusma's cute academic effort here) - which is no doubt the right approach if you want absolute fairness and platform balance. But hey, with simpler categories some people will actually put The Wild Bunch as their favourite demo even if it has to compete with Debris. Besides, charts shouldn't be fair anyway. They should be about who is hot and who is not. ;)

Same here.

Zest : seriously, can't you just fuck off already ? What's that retarded need to post pics everywhere as soon as people start to have a discussion about something on the BBS ?

ButtlerTheAlarm : same here

it's hot coffee time dude! good for socializing, brainworking and filling PAiN votesheet! (just don't get angry that early, it's bad for your stomach health :)

I absolutely agree with the Archster, just removing the separation would easily solve the (very academical, indeed) problem and make voting more appealing.

I second keops (on both issues).

without a distinction there would be no prods from "oldschool" platforms listed in the charts in the end. and that would somewhat suck for most of the non pc scener people who read pain. i agree the line to define what fits and what doesnt is abit shabby though, and i do recall an internal discussion to change the charts categories for next issue (major point was falcon and amiga4000 should be in >32bit for example) but without these distinctions of categories it would just be easier for everyone to do a select query to thumbs up - thumbs down from pouet of the last 6 months instead. where would be the fun in that?

I agree with keops on both too. And ps also, there's definitely need to separate the oldschool/newschool at least (I'd say possibly even separating pc/everything else, as i bet 90% of people only watch pc demos and will therefore vote for pc demos).

How to separate them? You can spend all day (or more likely forever) trying to categorise everything perfectly fairly, or you can give up and trust the judgement of the voters. The latter works fine for me, especially as I'm assuming somebody is checking the votes and putting them all together.

btw what about a 'best designers' hall of fame ? it could be different from 'best coders' or 'best 3D artists' imho.

ø1 SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS
ø1 ÄÄÄ(HotFire/Toasto)ÄÄÄ

Read this:
ø8Recommended:
ø8 486DX-40
ø8 4 MB RAM
ø8 Adlib or PC-Speaker

These are the system reqirements for the ASM95 Winner Demo. What is wrong with
this picture? Simply everything! because I do not have a 486DX-40 but just an
386SX-33 with not 4 MB of RAM but only 2! So what the heck is that all about?!
Are these people crazy?! What sense does it make releasing your demo productions
on a big event like the ASM when ø8I, Hotfire/Toastoø8 cannot watch them??!!
What sense does this make???
Ok, I have an Adlib-Card but how can this help me when do not have the right
processor??? To get the right processor I'd first have to go into a computer
shop, paying loads of money for it and then maybe even waiting more than one
day until it can be delivered! And all these great afforts just for being able
to watch this crappy demo??? No!!!
These guys think they're almighty, but they are not! They are just little
bastards and that's all!
øA- Hotfire/Toasto
øAîùùùùùùùùùùùùùùî

24bits soundcard anyone? :D
48bits video output?
3GB of ram?
It's not just a question of processors.

There's more than meets the eye.

or 'best directors' ?

Jesus what mess that would be.

Hotfire/Toasto < who's that again ?

Usually it was determined by the size of the data bus (that would make the falcon 030 a 16 bits computer, right ?)

ps, I see your point about newschool stomping on oldskool but at the same time I think that the number of potential voters is reduced drastically by the way it is currently done. Other models should be possible. Look to the scene.aaarrrRRRRRRghh awards' categories for instance. I'm sure that no platforms feel too left out there.

In general, I think that a chart should be a way of measuring the temperature of the scene at a specific point in time. Of course you will get an idea by a thumb search at pouet, but if the PAIN charts could be done in a way that says "Now, at this very point in time, THESE are the groups and demos that matter and the rest just have to try better" it would be much more interesting.

I'd love to see a chart that would have the readers anxious to check out if Fairlight actually managed to top Farbrausch in _popularity_ this month. And, with a large amount of voters behind it, such a chart could actually be important enough to have a guy from Fairlight slap a Farbrauscher in the face with a wet sausage and say "Ye wanker, we foooken beat yer arses in Peeeein charts last month!". Charts have actually worked like that before in the history of the scene, but currently I think the people who are in them hardly notice.

Bottom line is that you will never be able to muster a big enough amount of voters nor a competitive element if you try to cater for every damn platform out there for the sake of fairness. Only by making it simple and spectacular will you make it important.

As horrible as it might sound, the </>32bit debate might be best solved by going on the manufacturer's marketing. As much as it's often technically bollocks, it works out for the commodore stuff (the 16/32bit divide happens on a500/a1200, which is also ocs/aga, and seems to be considered oldschool/newschool).

And PCs? Who cares, they're asking for demos within the last 2 years, how many 16bit pc demos were released since then?

but pain is a PC magazine. noone complains about no farbrausch prods in eurochart for example...

ps or gargaj: if you are graph fans you could use artichow open-source php library to easily produce charts like google trend battle about the prod popularity of 2 groups over time :D

AGA is oldshcool. The thing is almost 16 years old!

xernobyl: true, but it's better to have some kind of fixed point before which everything was old :) I think the idea is that pre-aga most demos were about 2d hardware effects, and after that we got "proper" 3d stuff.

perhaps it should be split in "contains donut and duck.3ds" and "does not contains donut and duck.3ds"?

come on, that'll never happen. farbrausch are the demoscene's favourite pin-ups this month and every month. :)