pouët.net

umh, looks like you guys are missing an important point here: it was not the generic "muslim religious people" that decided to pull a track from a commercial game, but sony inc., a big multinational corporation. you might want to wonder why they thought it made business sense for them to do this. i am sure they get a lot of complaints about all kinds of stuff all of the time, and sometimes they decide to act on those complaints. how this is getting into a knee jerk "all muslims are evil" reaction is beyond me. you might be angry at sony for putting sales before artistic values, but that's about where the problem ends.

It's amazing how much people are prepared to criticise stuff they don't understand too. Islam isn't about violence or forcing your views on other people at all. The idea seems to be more like 'live in peace and get on with your neighbors, but if they come invading your land invade them right back'. That's where the hate for the west comes from, us invading their land, and their religion says they have a duty to pay us back for it.

To put that in perspective: the christians have a duty to 'spread the word' and convert other faiths. If they get hit, they're supposed to 'turn the other cheek'. Who has bombed more of the other side in recent years? I bet 100x more muslims have been bombed than westerners. If I was one of them, I'd advocate bombing the hell out of the west too.

It's not religion that's the issue here, it's politics, and most of the problems are here in the west. Anyone remember how we had to bomb the hell out of iraq and take over the country because saddam had weapons pointed at europe? And never mind that we sold him those weapons, and that they were 'out of date' 10 years before the war. We've killed many more iraqis than saddam ever managed. I think they're quite right to be pissed off.

Between muslims and christians, I'd say I actually prefer muslims. I strongly dislike the religion, but at least on the whole they stick to it so you know where you stand. Try asking the christian fundamentalists in america where their religion fits into their actions when they're threatening to start the next war.

...all this said. I still think it's absolutely spineless to cave in to such ridiculous demands from some bearded prune. And im offended that it seems like it is always his "type" that gets to define what islam is and isn't in public, always his tyoe who gets to define what offends us muslims and what doesn't. I am a lot more offended by him than sony And the song in question was apparently made by a ...tadaaa ...practicing muslim, just to add to the whole shebang of fucktardery surrounding these cases. '(but not practicing enough for our good brother whom so rightiously complained to Sony about using arab words that can be found in the Quran aswell as in music made by a fucking arab! in their computergame).

The Quran is one long song, starting from page one e.g: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7d37r3iUds

, so to try and pass people the idea that islam dislikes music or dislikes the combination of spirituality and music are either retarded, or a wahabi fundamentalist, and i belive in this lies the problem. Wahabi fundamentalism and the large voice they are given, even through ordinary day-to-day muslims because the only universites that educates socalled muslim "scholars" are wahabi funded. If any "islamic" text is translated, it is either verified by "official" wahabi clergy, or concidered "secterian" and unofficial. The wahabi mentality emobodies everything that unseen have said, but they are not very many in numbers ( alltho western "campaigns" and outright resource robbery is chaning that rapidly), what they rely on is the facts that:

1.muslims in general are authoritarian beyond belief if you can invoke Allah or Mohammad in your authority (and entirely lacking if you cant).
2.most muslims never read anything about their religion, nothing, not even the Quran itself. they rely solely on hearsay and imams educated by the wahabis, or wahabi approven subsidiaries.
3.most muslims cant read at all. The illiteracy rate is alarming. However, many have been forced to memorize the Quran...in arabic...a language most muslims do not speak at all btw. (apx.14% of muslims are arab speakers)

by these proxies even well meaning, often intelligent, and good hearted muslims all too often become spokes people for an ideology only a few of them even known the name of,.

Unseen, people like you are helping it along nicely btw. You just keep insisting that guys like you know what islam is and isnt and sprout it our in public at any given chance, just like the arrogant cocksucker that wanted the game recalled does in his own retarded way, and down the line muslims and non muslims alike will believe it (because none of them read fucking books!), and the wahabis will think thats just dandy! The loosers will be all sane people, regardless of what they believe in.

in case of TL:DR

Yasser represents all Muslims in the same way that Pat Robertson represents all Christians and Kim jung Il represents all Atheists.

Hear hear!

Organized religion == Cancer

"Every soul shall have the taste of death" and "All that is on earth will perish".

Seriously. This could be from any fucking book in the world or just random thoughs of the musician. I don't get it.
and

and


But hey. Living your religions after the book is insane anyway.

Atheism is nothing more than the practical consequence of agnosticism. But I'd point out that agnosticism doesn't just say "we don't know". It says "God is defined to be alogical and therefore not a thing that anything can be known about". Here's an analogy:

Let x be defined such that it satisfies: x = x + 1. You'll find solving for x very hard, but that's not the point. The point is that x is to algebra what God is to epistemology. Believing you've solved the equation would correspond to being religious. Maintaining that x isn't a number and that the equation is unsolvable, that's agnosticism. Ultimately not giving a shit, that's atheism.



Which doesn't mean there's just as much reason to believe God exists as there is reason to disbelieve.

Actually though, there IS a logical conclusion. Within the scope of logic God absolutely categorically doesn't exist. The agnostic question is whether that scope is big enough to account for "all things". It's sort of similar to the way solipsism says maybe none of this is actually happening and maybe nothing exists and you know, blah blah blah - completely pointless.

You either believe in stuff you have no reason to believe in, which means you're insane, or you don't, which makes you an atheist.



Agnosticism isn't a lesser form of atheism. See above. If you actually hold that "everyone should be an agnostic", and take agnosticism to mean we must take religious ideas seriously because we "don't know", then explain to me why I shouldn't be a solipsist.



What a thinly veiled threat.

x = infinity

I realize this misses the point. :)

looking at the secular ideology, im not sure you have a valid point there unless people by default are insane.

Who in their right mind would believe in, trust and support a system that robs them at gunpoint, and threatens them with violence so they will comply with organised injustice? yet here we are, and a lot of people do just that. Most people regardless of creed and faith believes in stuff there is no good reason to believe in, but does that make me an atheist then?

And there is a difference in these kinds of selfsuggesting, or self deception rather. Someone who believe in God, a god or dieties are at the core free to view these dieties as they please. They have the perks that the believer would like it to have, for whatever reason.
There is no evidence that it is either good or bad or even real, either way it comes down to interpretation and the individuals own core values. Or as it is said, religion is but a reflection of the practitioners mind.
Those that support a fradulent system on the other hand, have to do so contrary to a mountain of tangible physical evidence against it. I dont know whos more nuts really.

I did not heard you.

It seems to me the whole idea of a god is a house built on it's own roof. Sure, even if you take a scientific view of the universe, we don't know how it started, or why, and you can't say for sure that some intelligence didn't start it or even design it. But if that was the case, and the universe is the work of a god, then where did the god come from, and how did the god begin? It's just moving the target of the question.

I can't be bothered to read through the thread and possibly (probably) this has already been said but..

The problem isn't muslims, it's politically correct faggots. Or in the case of Sony maybe marketing personnel who want to please politically correct faggots.

which must be the question : what is time, and is there even a point in talking about a start? Is the big bang definitely proven? i dont think that it is, but if it is, it should make all muslims very happy:

Do the unbelievers not realize that the heaven and the earth used to be one solid mass that we exploded into existence? And from water we made all living things. Would they believe? [Al'Quran 021:030]

We constructed the sky with our hands, and we will continue to expand it [Quran 51:47]

these i pressume -observations- are 1400 years old. The big bang theory is nothing new, and it came from the idea of masculine ejaculation as the creator force. Big bang indeed. However, im a poor muslim for questioning this particular dogma of science...and of islam.

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/richard_dawkins_on_militant_atheism.html

http://www.lionsgate.com/religulous/

check the TED talk, 12 mins into the presentation. Incredible.
America eh.

cheers for that baldrick, that was quite good. I usually enjoy dawkins, and this was no different. I love his closing remark, and agree fully to it.
"let's stop being so damn respectful"

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=UY-ZrwFwLQg - Funny and poignant.

I thought about making a wild entry about burning and/or pissing on quran, but then i decided not to, because some nutjob would probably try to kill me for it.

Did you know btw that they are making a law right now in iran that will result all muslim men turning to christian getting hanged. Seriously.

If I were to make a game that included muslim stuff, it'd be about pissing on quran.

I know Muslims that rather piss on the Qu'Ran in front of Farrakhan than messing with me when I get my battle on!

No, nothing is. Hence my comment about solipsism. You don't even know for certain that the universe exists. Science has to be a bit more practical than that, though, and with that in mind, yes, Big Bang is "certain". So is evolution. And we're absolutely sure the Earth is roughly spherical, it orbits the Sun, and so on. It's not an infinite regress either, because BB only talks about the early universe, not about the pre-universe. I.e. it's deduced from present observations extrapolated back to the early universe, not forwards from an idea of what existed "before" it.

And, reinterpreting religious texts like that is bullshit. The BB singularity was not solid mass. It took ages and ages before anything was cold enough for solid mass to form. You also need a particular, modern (!) English translation of the Quran to even find references to an "expanding" sky, plus quite a bit of poetic licence to let "sky" suddenly mean universe, in the modern cosmological sense.

It's also quite funny how, whilst scientists held with some certainty that the expansion of the universe must be slowing down, Muslims managed to interpret the Quran in such a way as to "deduce" the Big Crunch theory from it. Now it turns out the expansion is not slowing down after all but in fact accelerating, somehow, in spite of gravity. It'll be fun to see how they find that in the Quran as well, but what they should really try to do is come up with the answer to the accelerating expansion before science. That would be something.

rainmaker, dont let fear stop you. Art and expression should be free as long as there are no harm to others involved (hurt feelings does not count). personally i find book and flag burning/pissing, whatever, to be assenine and a poor example of both art and free expression because what such an act expresses, is the infantile state of the mind that the performer has and nothing else.

People have done similar things which i respected like writing parts of the Quran on a naked female body (with the face covered obviously). Brilliant statement!

Iran is a shiah dictatorship so it is interresting that obvious Wahabi interpretations sneak their way in there. Afaii only wahabis insists that people who convert away from Islam should be killed, the Quran in absolute terms makes it anyones own choice what they want to waste their mind and time with regardless of what and whom they are.

Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion,' [Quran, 109:6]
Whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve,' [Quran, 18:29]
There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is distinct from error,' [Quran, 2:256]."

can you interpretate these in any other way than the obvious? well wahabis can, and its spreading like wildfire! We need art, we need provocations against wahabi influence, but be carefull not to aim at all muslims while doing it as it will only strengthen the wahabi influence over them. You know how people works as well as i do i presume...

This debate must be had, and it is not an option for muslims to back out of it. but it is altso about time we start to call the spade a spade. The political movement know known as wahabism, has hijacked islam in an organised way succesfully since the 1830's. it is the core of the "problem with islam" and not islam itself.

Theo van Gogh got killed for that.