Some thoughts on 4k competition rules
category: code [glöplog]
whizzter: I've got chrome in my metro so webgl is allowed?
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So... any hints what party organizers should do about the d3dcompiler dlls in let's say about three years when demo coders finally realize there's a thing called the Windows SDK?
ahh foo. they don't allow d3dx and d3d for intros is out. everything will be ogl. if the industry manages a common appcode format in that time one could perhaps run everything everywhere then. huh?
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Consider the common task of emailing a 4k to a friend.
Is that so common? I think I have done that maybe once or twice throughout the years, except internally for testing purposes. If anything, I give a Pouet link.
Potential recipients of such an email generally fall into two categories:
1. People who have a clue. These are my fellow demosceners. They know the traditions and know that it is necessary to download the end-user runtime because that is part of the platform that is generally agreed on for intro compos.
2. People who don't have a clue. They are impressed by 4k intros but are typically not interested in the details. And they are going to watch the youtube version anyway, because they don't know any better.
Either way, having to download the d3dx dlls (or whatever distribution becomes part of the standard demo platform in the future) is not a problem.
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2. People who don't have a clue. They are impressed by 4k intros but are typically not interested in the details. And they are going to watch the youtube version anyway, because they don't know any better.
also, if they no gamers they tend to have hardware in which a 4k rather looks like a slideshow ;)
Blueberry: if you look at what you're saying there, it's basically that you make demos only for established scenerrs. Don't you know people who are into similar stuff (animation, games, general computer graphics + 3d, and all the new stuff like processing)? I do, and sometimes I share demos with them, and it's really sad to have to say "go watch this video" instead of the magic of sending them that tiny file.
That's what it used to be all about, remember? Getting that disk in the post, wondering what it could be, loading it up and being blown away. A 4k in an email is almost as good. A youtube link doesn't go there.
Skomp: Send them a 3 year old demo, or whatever suits their hardware. There's a ton of old stuff that's super impressive that runs fine on low-end hardware (and can often just be mailed as an exe ;)
That's what it used to be all about, remember? Getting that disk in the post, wondering what it could be, loading it up and being blown away. A 4k in an email is almost as good. A youtube link doesn't go there.
Skomp: Send them a 3 year old demo, or whatever suits their hardware. There's a ton of old stuff that's super impressive that runs fine on low-end hardware (and can often just be mailed as an exe ;)
psonice: true, if they got no virus scanner :D
ouch skomp. but hits the button. people with no knowledge about the demoscene and sizecoding and stuff (aka regular customers) would probably never run an 4k exe in a email cause of the treat of a virus or a obvious false report of their avs.
where i get to 1. and 2. of blueberry. sceners and coders or maybe geeks do know about it and have d3dx or even msvcrt already, where customers have to be told to install it first. if they lazy they watch youtube. it's so convenient. on that whole i'd still blame ms for that lame distribution.
actually scene internal there isn't an issue... is it? :)
where i get to 1. and 2. of blueberry. sceners and coders or maybe geeks do know about it and have d3dx or even msvcrt already, where customers have to be told to install it first. if they lazy they watch youtube. it's so convenient. on that whole i'd still blame ms for that lame distribution.
actually scene internal there isn't an issue... is it? :)
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also, if they no gamers they tend to have hardware in which a 4k rather looks like a slideshow
And if gamers they most probably have a sufficiently new dx runtime installed already. It's not like years back when you needed to update trice a year to watch intros - latest is more than 2 years old.
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[...]the end-user runtime because that is part of the platform that is generally agreed on for intro compos.[...]
The platform that is generally agreed on for intro compos is and has been a dynamic thing - considering the current circumstances keeping d3dx in this platform is something that is at least highly discussable.
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[...]latest is more than 2 years old[...]
And considered deprecated by Microsoft.
And since when demoscene is about making demos only for latest setups? In worst case, we'll have Win XP and Win 8 as separate platforms, just like MS-DOS. Then some orgs will allow both, or not. Even now I think some parties would accept a MS-DOS 4k of reasonable quality, so even more Win XP ones, even if this setup gets ancient over time.
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And since when demoscene is about making demos only for latest setups?
Since when is demoscene stubborn and static regarding rules and agreements? In addition to that - "latest" is the wrong - afaik you already need to install that "old" extra stuff on Win7/Vista - even if you have a already by default working dx9/dx10/dx11.
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And since when demoscene is about making demos only for latest setups?
but this is entirely irrelevant to this discussion - we're still talking about inclusion vs exclusion.
in that very case of shader compiling. it just popped up in my head.
is it possible to track down compiled shader code down to driver level from both glsl and hlsl and it's compatible? if that could be solved. you could hack the compile with gl and use the shader code in dx and get rid of d3dx. still overheads the calls but i guess it's smaller then packing bytecode.
just an idea tho. i didn't want to test that. :)
is it possible to track down compiled shader code down to driver level from both glsl and hlsl and it's compatible? if that could be solved. you could hack the compile with gl and use the shader code in dx and get rid of d3dx. still overheads the calls but i guess it's smaller then packing bytecode.
just an idea tho. i didn't want to test that. :)
Gargaj: while reading KK's post, I was EXACTLY thinking about that screen :-)
There is no reason to exclude something that can still run in a compo machine's setup easilly provided with the dll necessary, just because it's outdated.
The reason DOS was excluded is that you couldn't run anymore a DOS demo from windows without booting from pure DOS. So, besides being outdated, it made the life of organizers easier. But that's not a problem so far for a bunch of DLLs. Don't know if this will change with Windows 8 though.
The reason DOS was excluded is that you couldn't run anymore a DOS demo from windows without booting from pure DOS. So, besides being outdated, it made the life of organizers easier. But that's not a problem so far for a bunch of DLLs. Don't know if this will change with Windows 8 though.
Optimus, you ignored the most important argument here: The current shader compiler dll is not part of an end-user runtime library anymore, but part of a huge Windows SDK. This means, that it's not enough to even install the Windows SDK on the compo machine, you'd either have to copy that dll / those dlls alongside of every prod or place them in the windows directory, by hand.
I don't know about you, but that feels much more like cheating than intsalling the old DX runtime.
I don't know about you, but that feels much more like cheating than intsalling the old DX runtime.
this is a very Coder-ey discussion, so let me pose a non-coder/party organizer question: what setup would net me the most cool intros? We do allow Linux and such too at TRSAC, provided you brought us some help with getting it to run (possibly by providing your own platform?).
This is an honest question - I suspect allowing the DX-dll-magic would be the answer, but I have no idea :)
This is an honest question - I suspect allowing the DX-dll-magic would be the answer, but I have no idea :)
Well, and did anybody check which exactly DX9 DLLs are on fresh Win8 install? I don't have this setup, but I'd gladly see a list of all "d3d*.dll" files found in fresh Win8 system. And if there is even a single d3dx dll, we can just switch to that.
Gargaj: What demo is that from? I've been looking for it for a while (:
The separate dx9 install is still required in win7 by a surprisingly large amount of games from the recent years.
Having been part of the compo organizing myself, I think it's ok to include dx9 DLL files for now.
Thing is that XP is really outdated, XP64bit is not a good choice either, so I usually have two windows installs when I prepare the compo machine:
XP with DX9 & C++ runtime
Win7 with DX9 & C++ (runtimes for both 32bit AND 64bit, they are not the same.)
Preferably I run everything inside win7 for more up to date hardware support and more RAM that can be adressed but some stuff like 256byters still require 16bit support or less sandboxing since win7 has a bit more more paranoid(?) system security which can result some <4k intros crashing, so I just resort to using XP in that case. This pretty much covers anything aside from linux/osx.
Anyway, I think that the dx9 install should still be allowed due it's presence outside of demoscene as well.
Having been part of the compo organizing myself, I think it's ok to include dx9 DLL files for now.
Thing is that XP is really outdated, XP64bit is not a good choice either, so I usually have two windows installs when I prepare the compo machine:
XP with DX9 & C++ runtime
Win7 with DX9 & C++ (runtimes for both 32bit AND 64bit, they are not the same.)
Preferably I run everything inside win7 for more up to date hardware support and more RAM that can be adressed but some stuff like 256byters still require 16bit support or less sandboxing since win7 has a bit more more paranoid(?) system security which can result some <4k intros crashing, so I just resort to using XP in that case. This pretty much covers anything aside from linux/osx.
Anyway, I think that the dx9 install should still be allowed due it's presence outside of demoscene as well.
knoeki: crystal dream 2
smash:
i'm no pc-high-end-coder, no hardcore gamer and do not work in gamedev, yet i can watch all recent high end demos in realtime in hd (1080p or sometines only 720p) on my budget config pc (~600€) i bought last year in march.. (i5-2500, AMD HD6850 , 8GB RAM)
i have no clue what you are talking about.
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hardly anyone has a pc powerful enough to run top end demos in realtime anyway these days except demomakers, hardcore gamers and people working in gamedev/3d graphics.
i'm no pc-high-end-coder, no hardcore gamer and do not work in gamedev, yet i can watch all recent high end demos in realtime in hd (1080p or sometines only 720p) on my budget config pc (~600€) i bought last year in march.. (i5-2500, AMD HD6850 , 8GB RAM)
i have no clue what you are talking about.
xtr1m: are you sure the windows sdk won't put said dlls in system locations?
oasiz: it's a directx installer, not just directx 9.
KK: yeah, lets open ProgramFiles/ObscuredIncludedD3DAppFromMicrosoft/d3dcompiler.dll instad of d3dcompiler.dll :) (I'm just afraid that finding the d3dcompiler.dll is unlikely.. but maybe the old d3dxs)
oasiz: it's a directx installer, not just directx 9.
KK: yeah, lets open ProgramFiles/ObscuredIncludedD3DAppFromMicrosoft/d3dcompiler.dll instad of d3dcompiler.dll :) (I'm just afraid that finding the d3dcompiler.dll is unlikely.. but maybe the old d3dxs)