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World records were invented when Dragonslayer/Mega Elites managed to do 4100 dots while Cyberknight/Unholy Masters could only do 4000 dots. They're not exactly this "new idea" some of you think they are.

I don't think the point was that world records are new... but rather that the idea of world records should be standardized, with some central entity keeping track of world records for each platform (which also implies that the platform specs need to be standardized, which is more or less one of this other points).

I mean, if you take this idea far enough... if we could make world records properly standardized and measurable, theoretically we could even have them in the Guinness book.
Also, check out "Twin Galaxies", they do something similar for video game world records.

So, well, although the ideas are a bit rough around the edges, I do think there is some merit to them.

The problem, I think, is that there's no singular definition of "the scene". If asked from a bunch of people, they will give different descriptions for it. Nobody likes it when someone comes in and says that HEY, THIS IS WHAT YOUR HOBBY SHOULD REALLY BE.

If you have a great idea of how to make "the scene" better, don't try to make other people to do it. Do it. If it's a good idea, others will follow.

I have nothing against ramon's ideas per se, but instead of saying that "this is what you should do", he(?) should just do it himself.

DO organize awards. DO set up rules. DO promote said things. DO set up web sites with resources to help people along. DO organize galas. DO organize competitions. DO get sponsors to further promote your thing, to attract other people to join in.

Don't just make random posts saying that hey, this is what YOUR HOBBY should be.

I liked text mode demos. I wanted more of them. I organized annual text mode demo competition. I was ridiculed for it. My set of rules were commonly criticized. The rules described what *I* wanted text mode demos to be. Other people disagreed (but did nothing about it). Still, that work resulted in 90+ text mode demos - by my definition - to exist.

Make demos not scenes.

Okay, I'll bite then.
First off, not every idea is automatically a good idea just because someone said it. Everyone who has done any sort of professional work know that "ideas are easy and implementation is hard".
Second, these particular ideas - as people have pointed it out - reek of incompetence stemming from this weird retro arrogance that ooooh "bare metal coding is SOOO much better", oblivious to the fact that there's no such thing as a single manufacturer anymore and I hate myself for even having to have this discussion in 2014.
Third, and this is the biggest point here: The most important thing that I love(d) about the scene is that if you wanted to make a point, you did it by actions, not talking. There was no big discussion before Revision, the Scene.org Awards, Pouet, Zine, etc. You yourself had to execute and then either it worked or it didn't. Instead what we have here (in an increasing tendency) is random people with no merit whatsoever stumbling in the door and yelling at us for not doing something loopy that they conjured up in their fever dream.

Anyone who has done demos or organized parties will immediately see _from experience_ how this list of gibberish is a recipe of terrible ideas, but the even bigger problem with a post like this is the audacity by someone who hasn't done anything tangible exists to suddenly redefine what the few thousand (hundred?) hard working sceners are struggling to do.

This isn't a solution. This is part of the problem.

+1 sol

Succinctly put. I cannot agree enough with Gargaj's statement here.

Gargaj,
1) I never said the ideas were all good and only actually commented on one of the, - I just find it annoying that people mocked the very concept of someone putting forward some thoughts.

2) Just because *you* only like coding demos for the biggest, baddest PC's out there doesn't mean everyone does. Personally my passion is with the Amiga and what can be done with that old gal. I don't see how liking fixed/limited platforms is neither incompetent nor arrogant. You, on the other hand, does come across as arrogant on this matter, deciding who is incompetent or not. A good old Elite-scener, eh?

3) I completely agree - act! But it's ok to get some feedback on the ideas before launching them, no? Or, if you can't actually pull it off yourself, maybe give some inspiration to other people?

I've organized parties and done demos but apparantly I lack your experience to see what a problem ramon and his gipsy bunch is. Especially his ending remark (below) threatens to force a redefinition of my one and only link to my childhood: the demoscene.

"I really think a new standardized judging system and a new standard demos categories implemented across all parties would help create a renewed sense of competition. Add world records and demos on new or rarely used platforms and we could see a new booming interest in the demo scene."

sol, so you don't know what is meant with the wording "the scene"? what a load of bull.
I agree with the rest, but I don't see how it can harm that someone puts forward his view. Except ofcourse I can see it happening here on pouet.

What I think is "the scene" is quite probably somewhat different from what you think "the scene" is. Having a third person come and tell both of us that we're wrong and "the scene" is X is annoying, and that explains the replies. That was my point..

ok, fair enough. the scene is what you want it to be, I guess. I want it to be demos, parties/partying, meeting friends and CURRYWURST.

I have no comment on the rest but these kind of corny and cool nicks and groupnames need a revival!

Do we really need this bashing?
Whether bare metal is great or not - that is a personal opinion - does not matter.
However, let us please face it in a constructive way - we certainly have some issues inside the demoscene.

I am at least a bit concerned about the current developments in Germany (cannot speak for other countries).

First, my observations (for sure biased, but I have the feeling that I am not the only person seeing it like that):
It seems the scene is not dying, but it is changing - and from my point of view in a bad way:
Party count is increasing (+two new parties in Germany in the last years), Visitor count seems to be increasing (I have been told so and I tend to believe this).
Release quality AND count is decreasing: Less releases, more of them bullshit (We have been in the bullshit department quite often to "save compos").

Just to make things clear: I have no problem with people getting wasted at demoparties, that is expected - but you should at least TRY to contribute and not just consume.
If you just want to get wasted, there are better and cheaper variants to do that.

I have the feeling the amount of people going to a demo party for the getting wasted part is increasing while the amount of people actually contribution with PASSION to compos is decreasing.

So why is that? (I really do not know. Feel free to discuss!)
Some theories in question form:
Did we maybe attract the wrong people and are the approaches to attract new people the right ones?
Are we all just getting lazy and old?
Do we maybe need more education inside the scene? (We are at least to a certain point trying to help new upcoming groups - oh, yes, these groups really exist, you just didn't notice because you were yelling "the scene is dead" the whole time)
Do we fail to motivate our community to kick each other’s ass?

Other theories are welcome.

In addition, something "different" - let me just think aloud:
Well, demos were size limited a long time – was it 16MB or something? - maybe people would start thinking a bit more if we would bring that size limit back to demo compos. Making people think in the first place might be a good way to make them look deeper into new approaches - right?

Feel free to contact me on IRC or Skype (you know where to find me) if you want to talk about this stuff in private.

Strawman, strawman, strawman. Don't do that.

The original post - which is the point of contention here - wants to standardize the PC platform, which by definition is impossible: either you start restricting to very specific hardware (may or may not be available across the world) or you have various chipsets and manufacturers and so on.

And that brings us to the very very important point - that you skipped here: the post also wants to make sure that it's "bare metal" meaning there's no OS or drivers or any sort of middleware involved. So now we're trying to code demos on hardware that is 1) not documented (see: no opensource drivers) 2) varies wildly across the board even between similar models and brands and 3) obsolete within ~6 months when the next generation comes along. Why do you think a GPU driver weighs hundreds of megs nowadays? Why do you think demogroups sometimes curse those drivers? Because we're not on the level of "video memory starts here, have fun" anymore. Even VESA was a pain in the ass and that was just trying to get 32 bit color screenmode, imagine trying to use a modern GPU without some sort of API.

This isn't the first time this comes up - Zone was one of the people already back in early 00s who was very adamant about how he uses Demopaja "but would code straight on the GPU hardware if he could", even though there were flocks of PC coders telling him that he really really shouldn't even consider that as a valid or even remotely plausible option. The fact that this "idea" comes up periodically makes me miserable, because it speaks volumes of the perception of the scene and how there's this idea in some people's heads that using a PC is the equivalent of having training wheels on your bicycle and that the last ~15 years of using hardware accelerated graphics was doing it wrong from the getgo.

Noone wants to take your Amiga ways away from you, so please stop trying to take away our PC ways from us.

I blame AMD, with their consoles and Mantle and shit.

I'll risk derailing this thread even further to say that as someone who has done some driver development, I'll take the buggy opengl drivers any day over trying to command the GPU directly.. =)

Is it possible that more people are 'just partying' because demoparties are more party-like than they were years ago?

As I said before though, there's room for 'oldskool' PC stuff as well.
The older PC hardware was well-standardized (VESA being the cutoff-point I suppose).
F-Cycles made a demo that should work on any 386 and VGA I believe, which boots off a CD.
If more people are interested in something like this, then competitions could be organized (or the other way around: someone could spec out some kind of "bootable oldskool CD" compo, and just see who enters, much like the recent Amiga bootblock development).

Personally I think there's room for compos with original IBM 5150/5160/PCjr machines.

Gargaj, removing options is not what the original post is about at all. It's about new, standardized categories, that people can opt to participate in - Bare-Metal PC being one of them. It does not replace other compos.

My points are simply:
a) I find it interesting when people put forward their ideas and thoughts and find it disrespectful to mock them for doing so.
b) You and I (and everyone else) have different demoscene interests. Don't slam an idea simply because it doesn't interest you - just ignore it.

I don't understand the Amiga/PC remark - who's talking about taking either away?

It actually says so: "a new standardized judging system and a new standard demos categories implemented across all parties". That's what rubs me the wrong way.

<3

But it's just an idea. We should be discussing WHY it is a good or a bad idea, rather than if one is allowed to come up with ideas or not.

I enjoy seeing new compo-ideas emerge, like the 8k intro, live coding and, further back, procedural graphics. Some catch on and others are quickly forgotten.

las, that was something Gargaj made up.

Define bullshit. I would love to hear your definition.

Ah, fun.

1. Gargaj is right.

2. Booster, 2 things (hah):

- The PC "bash" (implying that one who usually releases on PC does not appreciate or perhaps even know what it is to code for fixed/limited or "bare metal" if you will), really?

- ". is what they said about the earth orbiting the sun." FANTASTIC! Can I keep that line to debunk any form of realism starting today?

Lastly, this is a dynamic creative environment. Time tells us it doesn't need stricter regulation.

thank you all!