Demozoo and web admins think they can bully real sceners
category: residue [glöplog]
Dear All,
I'm posting this here annd answering publically to show you how much I care about your vieled threats.
When I first read your answer, it was decieving, but not much else. Then I read it over and about the fourth lecture I realized how low it was of you.
So you get a public response.
I have little time since my life is not to be an online skid and I have family matters to take care of with school starting and the Amiga case stunt.
First of all, let me rapidly clear some erroneous assumptions from you (or continuous slander if I use your reverse-psychology values) :
1) I was never kicked out of the sad TRSI group. I just left. I did it publically too in the totalkaos.de chat - there were at least 20 people logging then, and by all means this was "only" 8 years ago so someone has that log. Not that I care that much between leaving or being kicked out really, but when I see you using this argument as a put-down constantly, I think it's time this is cleared. I left because they were always 95% of the time talking exclusively German on the threads and irc, and I felt excluded like an alien. At that time going through divorce was difficult, I had only 1 or two hours to spend online everynight and these people were "legendary idling" and responding late. The last straw "your fav expresion" was when after submitting the TRSI entry at http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=9111 Mikado at Equinoxe demoparty, I sent the binary to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPSATF5uQis to one of the members and he never submitted it to the demoparty. I then proceeeded to call them out that very night, as I'm calling you out right now. That's how it happened. The fact some guy might have decided to kick me out of his group after I left is of little interest to me. It is true at the time MrC, Irata Warhead were all fighting for control of the group so things were a bit fuzzy and that was around when Orange Juice website was dying and Pouet taking over, before SceneID, and I could not change any account information during the switch (including affils).
If it amuses to continue believing the lies of some other guy, so be it, just it's not how it happened.
2) In your reply the only fact of interest is that you claim to have spoken to Bill Best. It's hazzy and lost in the middle of your reponse. I asked you what was the element to have made you switch from already unfair "disputed status" to modifying group name and past, and you hid that in the middle of your response, admist same old BS real slandering that I contradict above and hereunder for last 8 years. Fine. You said you can make him talk to me. I already tried to contact people from that period 8 years ago and just last week as typed in my response to you. I am surprised he would rather answer dome random dudes like yourself instead of some potential member from that time with public call-out on social media, if of course what you claim is true. I'm a bit sceptic because you took some wekk to respond and invent some BS story, because your actions have already proven to be biased towards me and my group, because you hid the only important matter deep into your answer and in general because you followed on with some vieled threat just after saying this in your reponse (I'll get to it because this is really the reason I replied here). For the Bill Best stunt or not : between the disclosure of email and forced Deezer account 2 days ago and ongoing harrassment for last 8 years, Irata and all the bad bunch (probably including you yes) have been mailing me with different names and trying similar things, claiming to be original RSI leader, claiming this or that, sometimes nice and calm, sometimes insulting, sometimes threatening, sometimes just blank emails. This would not be the first time for me. I've been paid in the past just to denote random lies and liars. I think I can make the difference between 1) some random Canadian 2) some random Canadian who knew the pirate scene from mid-eighties, or some nowaday totally hoax no-fear attempt, during first 20 seconds of any voice call. Let him mail me, we'll arrange a phone call (Canada sleeps when France is awake and vice-versa) or two, and that will be it. Elsewise you're just BS yet once more.
3) Basically below your oown logic is flawed, all your arguments are based upon projecting on my past and actions, your own moral values as "as it would have given you immense this or that at the tim" : I'm not caring. We're just not similar, and from different past and cultures. To act as someone else one would need to walk in his footsteps. It is not because to you it is illogic to give back a 100 dollar bill found on the floor to some authority, that someone else would not act differently in same situation. So please do not apply your logic when there is none.
4) Finally the threats and the "slanderous" part. Let me be real real clear. Do not threaten me. You can do what you want with your website scripting and all (your money your time your energy) and I respect that, but don't you dare threaten me. You're just not tough enough to walk that path and I nver threatened you so I ask for same respect. For the "Slander", you attacked from he start and first since the very start of demozoo and fake Wiki stunt and slanderous wording "has yet to be convincingly verified" : so you've been calling me a liar or at the very least a crazy person since day one of the creation of your website. Who's being slanderous ? Spinning the table with reverse-psychology much ?! I have enough material, even if it is no way my intentions, to legal challenge you for harrassment and liebel, about 10 times. If I'm behaving, so should you. Don't threaten me and don't reverse who is attacking who. I see all the aswers I've already given to your attacks have been marked as residue by your friends. Everytime I answer your BS your response is to hide it using the web.
So what's this ? I hate bullies like you. I've always strongly despised them. People who feel godsent because they invested some doe in a website and who act like jurors giving good points and bad points to people who try to be active. You write your books, do your videos, go to conferences, do those "people who succeeded - famous scener" clickpages, try your outreach BS and then as act hyenas when you're drunk or on drugs with anonymous fake accounts in order t bring down legitimate profiles who want nothing to do with your or your sorry lives. I fill pity and not disdain for you.
Go bully someone else, put up or hush with your supposedly newfound contact (have him contact me as I asked you before) and don't threaten me punk.
Baudsurfer/Red Sector Inc.
related :
http://www.pouet.net/topic.php?which=10831&page=8
http://www.pouet.net/topic.php?which=10211
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
De: "olivier XXXXXXX" <olivier.XXXXXXX@XXXX.XX>
À: "Matt XXXXXXXX" <matt@XXXX.XX.XX>
Cc: "gleb XXXXXX" <gleb.XXXXXX@XXX.XX>, glennXXXXXXXX@gmail.com
Envoyé: Mardi 6 Septembre 2016 23:05:11
Objet: Re: About what demozoo just did to my group
Dear Matt, dear all,
Thank you for long email response !
It is really appreciated.
> "he went as far as offering to have a phone call with you in order to find out who you are and whether you really were a scene member in 1980s Canada. We did not know how to make this possible, but the offer still stands."
Super ! I am very keen to exchange with this person and hope you will be so kind as to forward him my email to start with.
Elsewise he can answer the official message where I called for him here : https://twitter.com/red_sector_inc/status/770516794817798144
PS : don't threaten me please for I never threatened you ;)
Baudsurfer/Red Sector Inc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
De: "Matt XXXXXXXX" <XXXX@XXXX.XX.XX>
À: "olivier XXXXXXX" <olivier.XXXXXXX@XXXX.XX>
Cc: "Glenn XXXXXX" <glennXXXXXXXX@gmail.com>, "Gleb X. XXXXXX" <gleb.XXXXXX@XXX.XX>
Envoyé: Mardi 6 Septembre 2016 10:20:59
Objet: Re: About what demozoo just did to my group
Dear Baudsurfer,
We would like to keep this as simple and factual as possible. We are saddened and puzzled by the fact that you are repeatedly triggering the “Streisand effect” by opening another pouet thread (which most likely caused more people questioning your RSI credentials than before), and also by your slanderous accusations against Dipswitch. But this is not the subject here. We are not in the least interested in a flame war - we are, however, highly interested in the history of the scene, and this is the reason we are investing our time and energy in maintaining Demozoo. After wondering for over a year about what to do with your case, we decided to split the RSI entry the way we did, and we did so in a way that was supposed to cause as little drama as possible (mind you, we could also have named the new entry “RSI (fake)” instead of “RSI (new)”, but we decided against that in order to keep the tone respectful).
We'd like to note that the original text described the status as "unresolved", not "unresolvable". Demozoo is an ongoing work in gathering new information to resolve gaps and inconsistencies in our knowledge, and it's entirely expected that old data will be revisited and updated in the process. Where conflicting accounts exist, it's our job to research and evaluate those sources, not just take them at face value - and to do so irrespective of any personal grievances with the people concerned. Yours is not the first case where we've had to make that kind of judgment call (see for example Saga Musix's investigation into the authorship of MODs by "Timelord" here: http://sagamusix.de/other/timelord/) and will surely not be the last.
You are asking about the evidence that our decision is based on. Well, there are many factors that make us question your version of the story. The thread opened by Reed/Fairlight sums up many of the doubts, which are, if one leaves Reed’s specific sarcasm aside, very plausible and convincing. Let us, however, name a few additional factors.
- The fact that you used to be Kozmik of Nextempire is unquestionable, and was repeatedly acknowledged by you. We have looked into all your public utterances (infofiles, interviews) during your time as NE leader. Nowhere did you mention your “old” scene past, even though it would have given you immense social capital in the scene back then. Already this is strange - but it becomes even stranger. When you joined TRSI in the 2000s, you apparently never ever mentioned your assumed “RSI (co-)founding member” status. Even more, you also did not mention it when you were kicked out of TRSI. This is quite weird, because you simply could have said “you can’t kick me out, I was the co-founding member of your group”. Yet there was no argument of that sort by you, as the responsible TRSI personnel from back then confirmed to us. You came up with your version of RSI history only _after_ being kicked out of TRSI.
- These and other inconsistencies made us dig deeper and investigate your claim of being one of RSI’s co-founding Canadian members. After some efforts we were finally able to speak to Bill Best. We have all reasons to assume that he is the real Canadian Bill Best who founded RSI together with Greg and Kangol Kid. Also, he has absolutely no stake in this affair: not only is he not a current TRSI member, but also he has not been in touch with the scene since the second half of the 1980s. He was very surprised to learn about your claims, and assured me that he does not know any scener that goes either by your real name or your nick name. It is indisputable that he was the founding member of RSI. Thus, it would be extremely implausible that he would forget another founding member, wouldn’t it? Even though Bill Best does not care much about the current demoscene, he went as far as offering to have a phone call with you in order to find out who you are and whether you really were a scene member in 1980s Canada. We did not know how to make this possible, but the offer still stands. I doubt, however, that it would be of any benefit to you and your claim.
This encounter was the last straw for us that made us go forward and split up the group entry at Demozoo. This step is non-negotiable and irreversible, unless any major new facts will resurface to back up your story. Until then, you have to live with it. If you continue to question our decision in public, we will make this yet private email into a public statement. You can decide yourself whether this would be in your interest.
Before we finish, let us say one last thing, and we believe we can say it not only on behalf of the Demozoo staff, but also large sectors of the active demoscene. You are a great coder, and your tiny intros have set a new standard in this genre. These products would have earned you a solid place in the scene’s hall of fame even if you had released them as “Randomguy of XYZ Group”. They speak for themselves. Yet everyone is bewildered and puzzled why you, instead of earning fame and respect with your skills, to the contrary, repeatedly undermine it with your drama. We all are happy for you that after your scene misfortunes of the 1990s and early 2000s, you finally have established yourself as a top coder through great productions. Why this is not enough for you, and why you need to involve a history that is questionable to say the least, is beyond our understanding.
We hope you realise that our intention is not to inflict damage on your person or your reputation. We merely care about scene history, and in this case we felt like having to intervene in order to keep our database intact.
Respectfully,
Demozoo staff (Gasman, Menace, Dipswitch)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
De: "olivier XXXXXXX" <olivier.XXXXXXX@XXXX.XX>
À: matt@west.co.tt, glennXXXXXXXX@gmail.com, "gleb XXXXXX" <gleb.XXXXXX@XXXX.XX>
Envoyé: Lundi 29 Août 2016 07:06:16
Objet: About what demozoo just did to my group
> Hello Matt, Glenn and Gleb,
>
> I would like to have an online email discussion with you about the recent wrongdoings on demozoo 3 days ago, and away from the brouhaha of forums and postures.
>
> I'll start by saying that although it was unperfect by definition, the status of RSI since the creation of demozoo was obviously the best choice. There was a notice pending of an unresolvable issue and the wording was diffamatory in the pseudo-wiki only some privileged could modify. But it was the best possible way and probably also the most sensible way of doing.
>
> I have asked you Matt to please revert it in the fix-it forum of demozoo.
>
> Elsewise I would be keen to know what is the new material Gleb encountered to distraught this fragile balance.
>
>
> This initial contact establishment isn't exactly as smooth as I wished it to be but please bear with me and see it as an occasion of a short apeased discussion.
>
> Ps: I await your answers eagerly
> Kind regards,
> Baudsurfer/Red Sector Inc.
>
I'm posting this here annd answering publically to show you how much I care about your vieled threats.
When I first read your answer, it was decieving, but not much else. Then I read it over and about the fourth lecture I realized how low it was of you.
So you get a public response.
I have little time since my life is not to be an online skid and I have family matters to take care of with school starting and the Amiga case stunt.
First of all, let me rapidly clear some erroneous assumptions from you (or continuous slander if I use your reverse-psychology values) :
1) I was never kicked out of the sad TRSI group. I just left. I did it publically too in the totalkaos.de chat - there were at least 20 people logging then, and by all means this was "only" 8 years ago so someone has that log. Not that I care that much between leaving or being kicked out really, but when I see you using this argument as a put-down constantly, I think it's time this is cleared. I left because they were always 95% of the time talking exclusively German on the threads and irc, and I felt excluded like an alien. At that time going through divorce was difficult, I had only 1 or two hours to spend online everynight and these people were "legendary idling" and responding late. The last straw "your fav expresion" was when after submitting the TRSI entry at http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=9111 Mikado at Equinoxe demoparty, I sent the binary to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPSATF5uQis to one of the members and he never submitted it to the demoparty. I then proceeeded to call them out that very night, as I'm calling you out right now. That's how it happened. The fact some guy might have decided to kick me out of his group after I left is of little interest to me. It is true at the time MrC, Irata Warhead were all fighting for control of the group so things were a bit fuzzy and that was around when Orange Juice website was dying and Pouet taking over, before SceneID, and I could not change any account information during the switch (including affils).
If it amuses to continue believing the lies of some other guy, so be it, just it's not how it happened.
2) In your reply the only fact of interest is that you claim to have spoken to Bill Best. It's hazzy and lost in the middle of your reponse. I asked you what was the element to have made you switch from already unfair "disputed status" to modifying group name and past, and you hid that in the middle of your response, admist same old BS real slandering that I contradict above and hereunder for last 8 years. Fine. You said you can make him talk to me. I already tried to contact people from that period 8 years ago and just last week as typed in my response to you. I am surprised he would rather answer dome random dudes like yourself instead of some potential member from that time with public call-out on social media, if of course what you claim is true. I'm a bit sceptic because you took some wekk to respond and invent some BS story, because your actions have already proven to be biased towards me and my group, because you hid the only important matter deep into your answer and in general because you followed on with some vieled threat just after saying this in your reponse (I'll get to it because this is really the reason I replied here). For the Bill Best stunt or not : between the disclosure of email and forced Deezer account 2 days ago and ongoing harrassment for last 8 years, Irata and all the bad bunch (probably including you yes) have been mailing me with different names and trying similar things, claiming to be original RSI leader, claiming this or that, sometimes nice and calm, sometimes insulting, sometimes threatening, sometimes just blank emails. This would not be the first time for me. I've been paid in the past just to denote random lies and liars. I think I can make the difference between 1) some random Canadian 2) some random Canadian who knew the pirate scene from mid-eighties, or some nowaday totally hoax no-fear attempt, during first 20 seconds of any voice call. Let him mail me, we'll arrange a phone call (Canada sleeps when France is awake and vice-versa) or two, and that will be it. Elsewise you're just BS yet once more.
3) Basically below your oown logic is flawed, all your arguments are based upon projecting on my past and actions, your own moral values as "as it would have given you immense this or that at the tim" : I'm not caring. We're just not similar, and from different past and cultures. To act as someone else one would need to walk in his footsteps. It is not because to you it is illogic to give back a 100 dollar bill found on the floor to some authority, that someone else would not act differently in same situation. So please do not apply your logic when there is none.
4) Finally the threats and the "slanderous" part. Let me be real real clear. Do not threaten me. You can do what you want with your website scripting and all (your money your time your energy) and I respect that, but don't you dare threaten me. You're just not tough enough to walk that path and I nver threatened you so I ask for same respect. For the "Slander", you attacked from he start and first since the very start of demozoo and fake Wiki stunt and slanderous wording "has yet to be convincingly verified" : so you've been calling me a liar or at the very least a crazy person since day one of the creation of your website. Who's being slanderous ? Spinning the table with reverse-psychology much ?! I have enough material, even if it is no way my intentions, to legal challenge you for harrassment and liebel, about 10 times. If I'm behaving, so should you. Don't threaten me and don't reverse who is attacking who. I see all the aswers I've already given to your attacks have been marked as residue by your friends. Everytime I answer your BS your response is to hide it using the web.
So what's this ? I hate bullies like you. I've always strongly despised them. People who feel godsent because they invested some doe in a website and who act like jurors giving good points and bad points to people who try to be active. You write your books, do your videos, go to conferences, do those "people who succeeded - famous scener" clickpages, try your outreach BS and then as act hyenas when you're drunk or on drugs with anonymous fake accounts in order t bring down legitimate profiles who want nothing to do with your or your sorry lives. I fill pity and not disdain for you.
Go bully someone else, put up or hush with your supposedly newfound contact (have him contact me as I asked you before) and don't threaten me punk.
Baudsurfer/Red Sector Inc.
related :
http://www.pouet.net/topic.php?which=10831&page=8
http://www.pouet.net/topic.php?which=10211
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
De: "olivier XXXXXXX" <olivier.XXXXXXX@XXXX.XX>
À: "Matt XXXXXXXX" <matt@XXXX.XX.XX>
Cc: "gleb XXXXXX" <gleb.XXXXXX@XXX.XX>, glennXXXXXXXX@gmail.com
Envoyé: Mardi 6 Septembre 2016 23:05:11
Objet: Re: About what demozoo just did to my group
Dear Matt, dear all,
Thank you for long email response !
It is really appreciated.
> "he went as far as offering to have a phone call with you in order to find out who you are and whether you really were a scene member in 1980s Canada. We did not know how to make this possible, but the offer still stands."
Super ! I am very keen to exchange with this person and hope you will be so kind as to forward him my email to start with.
Elsewise he can answer the official message where I called for him here : https://twitter.com/red_sector_inc/status/770516794817798144
PS : don't threaten me please for I never threatened you ;)
Baudsurfer/Red Sector Inc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
De: "Matt XXXXXXXX" <XXXX@XXXX.XX.XX>
À: "olivier XXXXXXX" <olivier.XXXXXXX@XXXX.XX>
Cc: "Glenn XXXXXX" <glennXXXXXXXX@gmail.com>, "Gleb X. XXXXXX" <gleb.XXXXXX@XXX.XX>
Envoyé: Mardi 6 Septembre 2016 10:20:59
Objet: Re: About what demozoo just did to my group
Dear Baudsurfer,
We would like to keep this as simple and factual as possible. We are saddened and puzzled by the fact that you are repeatedly triggering the “Streisand effect” by opening another pouet thread (which most likely caused more people questioning your RSI credentials than before), and also by your slanderous accusations against Dipswitch. But this is not the subject here. We are not in the least interested in a flame war - we are, however, highly interested in the history of the scene, and this is the reason we are investing our time and energy in maintaining Demozoo. After wondering for over a year about what to do with your case, we decided to split the RSI entry the way we did, and we did so in a way that was supposed to cause as little drama as possible (mind you, we could also have named the new entry “RSI (fake)” instead of “RSI (new)”, but we decided against that in order to keep the tone respectful).
We'd like to note that the original text described the status as "unresolved", not "unresolvable". Demozoo is an ongoing work in gathering new information to resolve gaps and inconsistencies in our knowledge, and it's entirely expected that old data will be revisited and updated in the process. Where conflicting accounts exist, it's our job to research and evaluate those sources, not just take them at face value - and to do so irrespective of any personal grievances with the people concerned. Yours is not the first case where we've had to make that kind of judgment call (see for example Saga Musix's investigation into the authorship of MODs by "Timelord" here: http://sagamusix.de/other/timelord/) and will surely not be the last.
You are asking about the evidence that our decision is based on. Well, there are many factors that make us question your version of the story. The thread opened by Reed/Fairlight sums up many of the doubts, which are, if one leaves Reed’s specific sarcasm aside, very plausible and convincing. Let us, however, name a few additional factors.
- The fact that you used to be Kozmik of Nextempire is unquestionable, and was repeatedly acknowledged by you. We have looked into all your public utterances (infofiles, interviews) during your time as NE leader. Nowhere did you mention your “old” scene past, even though it would have given you immense social capital in the scene back then. Already this is strange - but it becomes even stranger. When you joined TRSI in the 2000s, you apparently never ever mentioned your assumed “RSI (co-)founding member” status. Even more, you also did not mention it when you were kicked out of TRSI. This is quite weird, because you simply could have said “you can’t kick me out, I was the co-founding member of your group”. Yet there was no argument of that sort by you, as the responsible TRSI personnel from back then confirmed to us. You came up with your version of RSI history only _after_ being kicked out of TRSI.
- These and other inconsistencies made us dig deeper and investigate your claim of being one of RSI’s co-founding Canadian members. After some efforts we were finally able to speak to Bill Best. We have all reasons to assume that he is the real Canadian Bill Best who founded RSI together with Greg and Kangol Kid. Also, he has absolutely no stake in this affair: not only is he not a current TRSI member, but also he has not been in touch with the scene since the second half of the 1980s. He was very surprised to learn about your claims, and assured me that he does not know any scener that goes either by your real name or your nick name. It is indisputable that he was the founding member of RSI. Thus, it would be extremely implausible that he would forget another founding member, wouldn’t it? Even though Bill Best does not care much about the current demoscene, he went as far as offering to have a phone call with you in order to find out who you are and whether you really were a scene member in 1980s Canada. We did not know how to make this possible, but the offer still stands. I doubt, however, that it would be of any benefit to you and your claim.
This encounter was the last straw for us that made us go forward and split up the group entry at Demozoo. This step is non-negotiable and irreversible, unless any major new facts will resurface to back up your story. Until then, you have to live with it. If you continue to question our decision in public, we will make this yet private email into a public statement. You can decide yourself whether this would be in your interest.
Before we finish, let us say one last thing, and we believe we can say it not only on behalf of the Demozoo staff, but also large sectors of the active demoscene. You are a great coder, and your tiny intros have set a new standard in this genre. These products would have earned you a solid place in the scene’s hall of fame even if you had released them as “Randomguy of XYZ Group”. They speak for themselves. Yet everyone is bewildered and puzzled why you, instead of earning fame and respect with your skills, to the contrary, repeatedly undermine it with your drama. We all are happy for you that after your scene misfortunes of the 1990s and early 2000s, you finally have established yourself as a top coder through great productions. Why this is not enough for you, and why you need to involve a history that is questionable to say the least, is beyond our understanding.
We hope you realise that our intention is not to inflict damage on your person or your reputation. We merely care about scene history, and in this case we felt like having to intervene in order to keep our database intact.
Respectfully,
Demozoo staff (Gasman, Menace, Dipswitch)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
De: "olivier XXXXXXX" <olivier.XXXXXXX@XXXX.XX>
À: matt@west.co.tt, glennXXXXXXXX@gmail.com, "gleb XXXXXX" <gleb.XXXXXX@XXXX.XX>
Envoyé: Lundi 29 Août 2016 07:06:16
Objet: About what demozoo just did to my group
> Hello Matt, Glenn and Gleb,
>
> I would like to have an online email discussion with you about the recent wrongdoings on demozoo 3 days ago, and away from the brouhaha of forums and postures.
>
> I'll start by saying that although it was unperfect by definition, the status of RSI since the creation of demozoo was obviously the best choice. There was a notice pending of an unresolvable issue and the wording was diffamatory in the pseudo-wiki only some privileged could modify. But it was the best possible way and probably also the most sensible way of doing.
>
> I have asked you Matt to please revert it in the fix-it forum of demozoo.
>
> Elsewise I would be keen to know what is the new material Gleb encountered to distraught this fragile balance.
>
>
> This initial contact establishment isn't exactly as smooth as I wished it to be but please bear with me and see it as an occasion of a short apeased discussion.
>
> Ps: I await your answers eagerly
> Kind regards,
> Baudsurfer/Red Sector Inc.
>
i hope you will get well soon
best wishes
best wishes
cool story bro. rsi is lame as hell.
When is this shit going to end anyway ?
In all seriousness, though... no.