The demoscene in the 2010s
category: general [glöplog]
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Relatively speaking, I'd say that this isn't true at all. The bar has been equally high from the birth of the scene until now, it's just that things are a lot more visually interesting these days.higher bar to contributing at a respected level
Ok, what harm will be done, if javascript or beginner compos are "allowed". And to whom. Who or what gets hurt by those compos?
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a beginners compo is patronising, not encouraging.
What's patronising about 'little league' and 'juniors'? ;)
Yeah I know there's a whole bunch of shittiness with the concept of 'leagues' or whatever in the scene. Just thought it was a different way of doing things, and it definitely does have some good aspects, so maybe it's worth thinking about.
Any kind of organised league is definitely utterly wrong for the scene, but we already have a kind of 'elite' and 'everyone else' separation between the big and small parties. Some separation like this is good I think.. no point embarrassing a beginner by putting their first scroller between asd + fairlight.
or... it's them demogroups full of professionals that's ruining it for the rest!!! cheaters! you're all even worse than Real Madrid!!!!11111!!!11
Gasman: The bar at the top end may or may not be higher, but the scope is so much wider these days that there is more room for new contributors than there ever was.
I told my story or "non argument" because I thought it might be worthwhile for other people who're too shy to contribute to hear. There's loads of people out there doing stuff for their own enjoyment or education who are good enough to contribute to a bigger production but will never do so because nobody asked.
People might admit that they dabble in something and provide samples of their work, but they're unlikely to submit that stuff to a compo or bombard existing groups with it. If there was a way for those people to be found that isn't framed as a competition and isn't just for beginners, such as a sceners directory with portfolios or something, that could help boost activity.
PS if that already exists can someone tell me where the fuck it is.
I told my story or "non argument" because I thought it might be worthwhile for other people who're too shy to contribute to hear. There's loads of people out there doing stuff for their own enjoyment or education who are good enough to contribute to a bigger production but will never do so because nobody asked.
People might admit that they dabble in something and provide samples of their work, but they're unlikely to submit that stuff to a compo or bombard existing groups with it. If there was a way for those people to be found that isn't framed as a competition and isn't just for beginners, such as a sceners directory with portfolios or something, that could help boost activity.
PS if that already exists can someone tell me where the fuck it is.
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That's the thing - it isn't embarrassing for them, just contact-embarrassment from us. The first demo I contributed to was pretty much what you describe, and yet I felt nothing but pride by being shown before and after "kings of the scene" at the time.no point embarrassing a beginner by putting their first scroller between asd + fairlight.
True. I think that's kind of the wrong way to handle it though (unless this new demo happens to be one of the really good firsties). If it's not so hot, it's a disappointment to the audience to see something mindblowing and then something fairly poor (guess this is why the big compos tend to put the potential winners at the end, the rest of the compo would be boring if they were at the start)
Anyway, simple way to reward new people with their beginner demos: prize for last place. ;)
Anyway, simple way to reward new people with their beginner demos: prize for last place. ;)
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Yeah, that's about putting on a good show for the audience.(guess this is why the big compos tend to put the potential winners at the end, the rest of the compo would be boring if they were at the start)
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Without combining two debates here, TG actually has more than one prize for entries that weren't the best, but made a mark in some way or another (first prod by a group, best in show etc.) which I think is a good thing: put everyone in the same compo, let the obvious winners win, but also shine a light at people who are fresh or try their best.Anyway, simple way to reward new people with their beginner demos: prize for last place. ;)
on another note.. i dont personally believe we should be (or not solely, anyway) targeting 15 year old kids - i.e. absolute beginners - who may or may not stick at it and who may or may not have any aptitude for it at all - as the future of the demoscene.
for me, the target audience for new blood should (also) be talented, skilled people who are already interested in similar areas: people into processing or flash who want a bit the flexibility and freedom of a bit more firepower; those into cg art who want to try realtime; or those in gamedev who want a distraction from the day job or to get away from the ugly confines of interactivity and show off that great effect they made, or maybe to get back to that hobby thing they were into 10-15 years ago.
these guys do get involved in our scene regularly, although perhaps it's not all that visible. i know it because ive managed to "outreach" to some of them myself - people from work, or friends of friends - and get them interested in joining a big trip to a party or helping out working on a demo.
the cool thing about them is they have something new to offer the scene - a new perspective. and also those guys might actually show up and produce something good first time out (or at least 2nd/3rd time).
those people were interested in the scene because of the great demos they saw. they didnt get put off by the standard at all - they wanted to get involved because the standard was high enough to make their involvement worthwhile. something they saw inspired them.
if anything, the main complaint i get about the scene these days from people in e.g. the games industry is that it's gone downhill - that there's not enough amazing material and there's only a few groups doing really great work, and it doesnt make them want to do something themselves. it's not that the standard is too high and it scares them away - it's the _low_ standard that puts people off from even trying.
processing is a nice gentle introduction to graphics in a way that demoscene coding is never going to be, and there's more tutorials on graphics coding oriented at gamedev than anything else. if you want my view on outreach, it's this: make amazing demos, target those other "entry" scenes hard and get them to think of the demoscene as a higher level to aspire to. there are plenty of people out there who will see that as a challenge that motivates them to try, rather than a demotivating barrier they'll never be able to cross. for me, perhaps the biggest motivator is to be beaten - to be inspired to raise your own game to compete.
frankly, if you DO see the high standard as a barrier and you give up at the first try - perhaps that says something about your character, not the barrier itself.. :)
for me, the target audience for new blood should (also) be talented, skilled people who are already interested in similar areas: people into processing or flash who want a bit the flexibility and freedom of a bit more firepower; those into cg art who want to try realtime; or those in gamedev who want a distraction from the day job or to get away from the ugly confines of interactivity and show off that great effect they made, or maybe to get back to that hobby thing they were into 10-15 years ago.
these guys do get involved in our scene regularly, although perhaps it's not all that visible. i know it because ive managed to "outreach" to some of them myself - people from work, or friends of friends - and get them interested in joining a big trip to a party or helping out working on a demo.
the cool thing about them is they have something new to offer the scene - a new perspective. and also those guys might actually show up and produce something good first time out (or at least 2nd/3rd time).
those people were interested in the scene because of the great demos they saw. they didnt get put off by the standard at all - they wanted to get involved because the standard was high enough to make their involvement worthwhile. something they saw inspired them.
if anything, the main complaint i get about the scene these days from people in e.g. the games industry is that it's gone downhill - that there's not enough amazing material and there's only a few groups doing really great work, and it doesnt make them want to do something themselves. it's not that the standard is too high and it scares them away - it's the _low_ standard that puts people off from even trying.
processing is a nice gentle introduction to graphics in a way that demoscene coding is never going to be, and there's more tutorials on graphics coding oriented at gamedev than anything else. if you want my view on outreach, it's this: make amazing demos, target those other "entry" scenes hard and get them to think of the demoscene as a higher level to aspire to. there are plenty of people out there who will see that as a challenge that motivates them to try, rather than a demotivating barrier they'll never be able to cross. for me, perhaps the biggest motivator is to be beaten - to be inspired to raise your own game to compete.
frankly, if you DO see the high standard as a barrier and you give up at the first try - perhaps that says something about your character, not the barrier itself.. :)
People give up all the time, that's what they do. How many of you have a guitar in some corner somewhere, that is now unused because you weren't able to automagically transform yourself into one of them long-haired fellows playing their 'beat' music?
Doesn't mean you didn't have fun trying.
Doesn't mean you didn't have fun trying.
gloom +1
sagacity: haha, i have actually - but that doesnt mean im expecting to be asked to play glastonbury to improve my motivation. :)
smash: I think you raise an excellent point about who to reach with the outreach. I think it also depends on what you are looking to recruit. The approach for attracting coders will most likely differ from the one used to attract 3d modellers and graphicians. (I suggest people don't try to recruit musicians, there are enough of us going unused already :)
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sagacity: haha, i have actually - but that doesnt mean im expecting to be asked to play glastonbury to improve my motivation. :)
Actually, that kind of hits it. Best motivation in this case is if your mates form a little band and ask you to play - then you pick the guitar up and start practicing some songs. And how about if your local pub had a regular night where local bands can play a few tunes? Tons of encouragement to get off your ass and do something, no major pressure or fear of being booed off the stage.
Perhaps we need more local clubs, like back in the old days. There used to be a little meet up near me back in the amiga days, in a room above a pub. It was mostly warez trading, but there were always demos running and a few people were coding stuff. Something like that might work, but maybe without the emphasis on warez, I don't think that would stay open long these days ;)
the function democompo was just won by a guy with his first demo. that (and evoke) sortof invalidates the whole bullshitty beginner-democompo argument.
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I think it can go both ways. While it can be encouraging for some people to have your mates+parents show up at a semi-empty pub-night to applaud after each of your three songs played, others might find it cooler to actually be allowed to play a warm-up performance for Arcade Fire (or whatever), even if you're not getting a standing ovation at the end.Best motivation in this case is if your mates form a little band and ask you to play - then you pick the guitar up and start practicing some songs. And how about if your local pub had a regular night where local bands can play a few tunes? Tons of encouragement to get off your ass and do something, no major pressure or fear of being booed off the stage.
But more local meetups are definitively needed - local gatherings were instrumental back in the day, and having a sort of "support structure" for people who like to get together in a basement and talk it out while drinking beer and pointing at the screen :)
Nothing stopping you doing either or both :)
I kind of doubt a regular local meetup would involve a regular compo though.. if somebody made a demo and wants to present it there, they can just go ahead and do it. If they think it's good enough, or they just want the glory, they can keep it for the really big screen.
I kind of doubt a regular local meetup would involve a regular compo though.. if somebody made a demo and wants to present it there, they can just go ahead and do it. If they think it's good enough, or they just want the glory, they can keep it for the really big screen.
Personally I was also thrilled to just be able to see the first demo I worked on*, on a big-screen. The fact that it won was completely unrelated to the quality, since it was pretty horrible, but I remember being completely ecstatic to see it running (and not crash).
* Well, actually it was the second demo, the first one was so obscure it's not even on Pouet (though it got released at wired '97).
* Well, actually it was the second demo, the first one was so obscure it's not even on Pouet (though it got released at wired '97).
first: viznut, very interesting and nice article.
second: nice thread here.
I was on holidays the last two weeks, so it's hard to phrase an
answer to the many contributors here or really get into the heart
of the discussion, but I still feel the urge to say something :)
(anything of course highly subjective)
like probably everyone of us I often thought about the "core" of
the scene. nowadays I believe what drives the scene actually is
simply a common and very special mindset. I'd like to emphasise
that "very special", because without that it would just be what
drives any random community. of course that mindset does not stand
alone. it's closely coupled with certain things such as being technology
driven. so, no matter how pragmatic some/many sceners are these
days (I e.g. became very pragmatic during my scene-life) towards
technology, platforms, languages etc., still the experimental, DIY
style (DIY including that specialty, that most things are coded)
is at the core.
I believe I'm with viznut here so far ;)
concerning now the development of the scene and that newcomer
issue. I believe any effort of getting someone into the scene is
somewhat wasted effort. outreach is good to present the scene to some general audience, I do/did it myself, e.g. with presenting the scene at various opportunities at my university back when I was studying. but I believe, sounding probably ultra-pathetic, the scene gets you, not someone from within the scene doing outreach. or, the mindset of the scene gets you. when I started, "standards" (what are these exactly anyway?) were already skyscraper-high. but what actually drove me was that concept of the ultimate creative freedom that comes from doing everything by code. just like some artist decides whether his new artwork is painted on paper or canvas I decided to make it based on code.
now, I believe it's not any high standard that scares away newcomers.
I simply believe it's the way you think. at buenzli this year I met
Jooo, the youngest scener I met in ages. and, just noticing, I believe
he also was a bit caught in that "thinking too much" thing. thinking,
whether you chose the right language, whether you are doing it right,
whether others are alot better than yourself and shit. that's the real
problem I believe. the best new (and real) demosceners are those that
come into the scene driven by any (really ANY) urge to create something
in a way they want it to do. look at those YUP guys. to me it seems
their aim is to do advanced, high-level technical stuff - and they
succeed. they definitely are not scared by any big names, groups, prods.
and then there are people that just do very, very special stuff - e.g.
satori. and then there are groups that do both - like MFX or ASD.
so, once you are clear about what you want to do, I think your road
to a great scene-life that is fun, competitive and sometimes also
demanding is open.
so, I'm not sure whether the scene has to change itself in any way at
all. it only has to adapt a bit to its changing surrounding (as viznut pointed
out, and what the scene always has succeeded in doing so), I somehow
believe the rest will come itself.
to come to an end: what makes the scene so awesome is, that you are
definitely not limited (at least not except by any technical/physical
limits that apply to every person on this earth) in any way to do
your stuff.
just don't think too much about how good it is what others did compared
to your stuff. let it inspire you, though.
and go do something. go make a fucking demo about it.
second: nice thread here.
I was on holidays the last two weeks, so it's hard to phrase an
answer to the many contributors here or really get into the heart
of the discussion, but I still feel the urge to say something :)
(anything of course highly subjective)
like probably everyone of us I often thought about the "core" of
the scene. nowadays I believe what drives the scene actually is
simply a common and very special mindset. I'd like to emphasise
that "very special", because without that it would just be what
drives any random community. of course that mindset does not stand
alone. it's closely coupled with certain things such as being technology
driven. so, no matter how pragmatic some/many sceners are these
days (I e.g. became very pragmatic during my scene-life) towards
technology, platforms, languages etc., still the experimental, DIY
style (DIY including that specialty, that most things are coded)
is at the core.
I believe I'm with viznut here so far ;)
concerning now the development of the scene and that newcomer
issue. I believe any effort of getting someone into the scene is
somewhat wasted effort. outreach is good to present the scene to some general audience, I do/did it myself, e.g. with presenting the scene at various opportunities at my university back when I was studying. but I believe, sounding probably ultra-pathetic, the scene gets you, not someone from within the scene doing outreach. or, the mindset of the scene gets you. when I started, "standards" (what are these exactly anyway?) were already skyscraper-high. but what actually drove me was that concept of the ultimate creative freedom that comes from doing everything by code. just like some artist decides whether his new artwork is painted on paper or canvas I decided to make it based on code.
now, I believe it's not any high standard that scares away newcomers.
I simply believe it's the way you think. at buenzli this year I met
Jooo, the youngest scener I met in ages. and, just noticing, I believe
he also was a bit caught in that "thinking too much" thing. thinking,
whether you chose the right language, whether you are doing it right,
whether others are alot better than yourself and shit. that's the real
problem I believe. the best new (and real) demosceners are those that
come into the scene driven by any (really ANY) urge to create something
in a way they want it to do. look at those YUP guys. to me it seems
their aim is to do advanced, high-level technical stuff - and they
succeed. they definitely are not scared by any big names, groups, prods.
and then there are people that just do very, very special stuff - e.g.
satori. and then there are groups that do both - like MFX or ASD.
so, once you are clear about what you want to do, I think your road
to a great scene-life that is fun, competitive and sometimes also
demanding is open.
so, I'm not sure whether the scene has to change itself in any way at
all. it only has to adapt a bit to its changing surrounding (as viznut pointed
out, and what the scene always has succeeded in doing so), I somehow
believe the rest will come itself.
to come to an end: what makes the scene so awesome is, that you are
definitely not limited (at least not except by any technical/physical
limits that apply to every person on this earth) in any way to do
your stuff.
just don't think too much about how good it is what others did compared
to your stuff. let it inspire you, though.
and go do something. go make a fucking demo about it.
oh, and hooray for fail-formatting.
There is also a very simply reason why new blood isn't rushing to the scene: why should they? Back in '89 when I first got started -- there wasn't any other place I could find cool visuals, electronic music and crazy hardware hacking. These days, such things are EVERYWHERE, and all of the genres are easier to get into and more accessible than ever due to the Internet. Now, this isn't a bad thing at all, as long as active people within the demoscene recognize it for the opportunity it is. Like Smash writes - making the demoscene seem extra special, and in a class of it's own, is where it's at.
I will claim demoscene outreach make it appear as extra special not really because it might attract others, and rather to please the ego of its remaining participants.
I feel like gloom is right...
ah, now I want to watch Orion's "This is"... such a long time! :D
i like that demo :)
ah, now I want to watch Orion's "This is"... such a long time! :D
i like that demo :)
[warning, long text ahead]
i think the demoscene is seen otherwise by outsiders (=as a platform) as it is being seen by the inside scener (=as a community/way of life).
this leads to the situation that the people seeing themselfes as active sceners tend to don't understand how anyone cant be willing to be part of the demoscene and some of then even see it as their job to decide wheter the talent or skills of that person is good enough to be accepted into the community, or not. this way of elitist thinking seems to have been much stronger in the 90s (or pre-internet-era), tho.
but the wind has changed: today its not a problem that the scene gets flooded with lamers (as if it ever was...), but that i doesnt get flooded at all!
The already-skilled outsiders (which smash is speaking of) will not contribute to the scene because "they can" but will in fact look at the "platform" demoscene and if it makes any sense to them to present their stuff to this audience. this decision has a lot to do with what the person doing digital art wants to achieve by doing it.
if i, for example, want to be a cgi-expert for hollywood studios there are better places to present what i can do than a demoparty, even if the shortfilm i created would have been loved and accepted as a wild entry. maybe i would try it one day to have my fun or as an experiment with a new style, but i will always remain an outsider and have no real intention of becoming "part of the scene".
on the other hand i think most (if not all) of the people who are considered (or consider themselfe as) "the demoscene-core" have started to contribute because they see the scene as a very special and fascinating place and care about the whole movement rather than looking for a place to stand out when presenting their skills.
in fact, i think it is a lot easier to develop this kind of affection when you are younger, i.e. in your teens. i also think it was easier to develop this kind of affection 20 years ago because there was less stuff in the digital world (nowadays=internet) to distract you or point you to other communities.
so what am i saying?
basically im saying that on the one side, events like TG or ASM are important to deliver the fascination of the demoscene to a younger audience and try to win them for it because if they join in at a younger age it is more likely they stick around for longer and start becoming active not only in the production of digital releases but also develop a bond to the movement and the things happening around them. but this is kind of hard when theres a "conservative" scener-force who still sees themselfes as being an elite-movement and expect people to reach a certain level before they can start getting respect and encouragement for what they do. the scene shouldnt be invite-only.
outreaching to other art-scenes on the other hand (decode:recode comes to mind) can be very fulfilling and if its just to look above the own horizon and get new inspiration and meet people who may think different about their art. and dont get me wrong, its fantastic if those people decide that the demoscene is a cool platform for pushing their personal skills and/or make new friends.
just dont take it for granted that they identify themselfes with it (as they most likely will see it as "just another platform with a new audience i can reach").
i think the demoscene is seen otherwise by outsiders (=as a platform) as it is being seen by the inside scener (=as a community/way of life).
this leads to the situation that the people seeing themselfes as active sceners tend to don't understand how anyone cant be willing to be part of the demoscene and some of then even see it as their job to decide wheter the talent or skills of that person is good enough to be accepted into the community, or not. this way of elitist thinking seems to have been much stronger in the 90s (or pre-internet-era), tho.
but the wind has changed: today its not a problem that the scene gets flooded with lamers (as if it ever was...), but that i doesnt get flooded at all!
The already-skilled outsiders (which smash is speaking of) will not contribute to the scene because "they can" but will in fact look at the "platform" demoscene and if it makes any sense to them to present their stuff to this audience. this decision has a lot to do with what the person doing digital art wants to achieve by doing it.
if i, for example, want to be a cgi-expert for hollywood studios there are better places to present what i can do than a demoparty, even if the shortfilm i created would have been loved and accepted as a wild entry. maybe i would try it one day to have my fun or as an experiment with a new style, but i will always remain an outsider and have no real intention of becoming "part of the scene".
on the other hand i think most (if not all) of the people who are considered (or consider themselfe as) "the demoscene-core" have started to contribute because they see the scene as a very special and fascinating place and care about the whole movement rather than looking for a place to stand out when presenting their skills.
in fact, i think it is a lot easier to develop this kind of affection when you are younger, i.e. in your teens. i also think it was easier to develop this kind of affection 20 years ago because there was less stuff in the digital world (nowadays=internet) to distract you or point you to other communities.
so what am i saying?
basically im saying that on the one side, events like TG or ASM are important to deliver the fascination of the demoscene to a younger audience and try to win them for it because if they join in at a younger age it is more likely they stick around for longer and start becoming active not only in the production of digital releases but also develop a bond to the movement and the things happening around them. but this is kind of hard when theres a "conservative" scener-force who still sees themselfes as being an elite-movement and expect people to reach a certain level before they can start getting respect and encouragement for what they do. the scene shouldnt be invite-only.
outreaching to other art-scenes on the other hand (decode:recode comes to mind) can be very fulfilling and if its just to look above the own horizon and get new inspiration and meet people who may think different about their art. and dont get me wrong, its fantastic if those people decide that the demoscene is a cool platform for pushing their personal skills and/or make new friends.
just dont take it for granted that they identify themselfes with it (as they most likely will see it as "just another platform with a new audience i can reach").
decode:recode is also a perfect example of a non-scene activity that highly respected and talented sceners seek out because it's something that's scene activity related enough to appeal to them. That's the other side of it - people actively seeking out new challenges outside of the scene.