pouët.net

notification of not being pre-selected

category: general [glöplog]
From the music compos that I know of, there pretty much always is a jury of multiple people, who judge the tracks being played. Exactly to avoid any "Oh, $orga didn't like me personally or my track!"-situations. So if your track is thrown out, it has a reason. My tracks where dumped so many times, I can't count it anymore. And for sure, there was more than just one occasion I thought: "Well, this song made it and mine did not?" This year had some songs I didn't really like in terms of composition or genre, but they had such a stellar production value, that my jaw dropped.

The song length limit in my opinion is 2.) a good way to actually get more tracks played a.) a challenge to arrangement and IV.) to prevent someone handing in a 60m ambient drone track. There have to be restrictions. It's just rules like any other competition. If you can't put your effects in 4k, then don't attend the 4k compo. If you want to attend, make sure you don't go over the size limit.

In terms of visibility I'd very much prefer d.fox opt-in method, if such a feature is really wanted by so much people.

Don't get me wrong. I didn't make the preselection in a single breakpoint streamed music compo in all the years, so I know really well how it feels. Also the constant feeling of being #4 to #10. :D Instead of hunting down the jury I just talk to musicians I look up to and who are veterans in the field. Just soaking up the advices they can give me and sometimes even can get them to listen to my track and tell me what could be done better, or what's wrong with the specific song. Just taking into account what guys like saga, jco, ronny or others have said about my music and production in general has made me change a lot in my "work" and subjectively improve.
added on the 2021-04-07 08:13:37 by bod bod
What bod said. Make friends with other artists and get their opinion, too. If they are actually good, they will encourage you to continue.
added on the 2021-04-07 09:03:59 by novel novel
Actually, if you just want your track played, then the best advice is wrap it in a one-screener and enter it into one of the demo compos. ;)
added on the 2021-04-07 09:51:06 by Subi Subi
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Actually, if you just want your track played, then the best advice is wrap it in a one-screener and enter it into one of the demo compos.


This looks like a good idea. It requires, of course, both the notification of not being pre-selected an separated deadlines for the music and demo compos.

The caveat is that demo compos could start applying pre-selection too if a compofiller demo were made for each not pre-selected tune.

So, a better advice could be to make a whole full demo for the next party using that music (as it was or improved).
added on the 2021-04-07 10:09:20 by ham ham
When there is a full-featured party manager and the compo team isn't just one overworked individual with Notepad, I see no reason not to have notifying about preselection as a feature in the party manager itself. Of course, some people prefer the excitement of not knowing, so it should be an opt-in/opt-out feature.

I also like the idea of letting people know the order number of their entries, though if this is implemented, I think it should be a separate opt-in/out-out feature. Personally I like the suspense of not knowing when my entry is played, just that if it's not going to be played at all, I'd rather not find out by watching the compo.

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I submitted a prod. On my browser side all went OK. To be sure I checked twice, reloaded! But the orgas have NOT got ANYTHING!


This should be something where the compo team contacts you and not vice versa. I'm always nervous about uploading an entry on a phone via a never-100%-stable party network, so I'd appreciate just having a flag that yes, they got the file, and the file was not a 0 byte zip. Surely this would be better than me burdening the compo team by follow-up questions?
added on the 2021-04-07 10:11:25 by jobe jobe
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Actually, if you just want your track played, then the best advice is wrap it in a one-screener and enter it into one of the demo compos.


This looks like a good idea. It requires, of course, both the notification of not being pre-selected an separated deadlines for the music and demo compos.

The caveat is that demo compos could start applying pre-selection too if a compofiller demo were made for each not pre-selected tune.


Actually I was thinking of bypassing the music compos altogether - If your aim is simply to get your tune played to the crowd at the biggest demoparty of the year (which is also where the "just enter it at another party" argument falls down) then you're better off entering it into a compo that more people watch and that isn't as oversubscribed as the black holes of the music compos. :) You're tune is more likely to live on as part of a demo too, however simple that demo might be.

Don't get me wrong, I love the music compos to bits, but there's a problem with how we currently present them that needs a solution - and that solution clearly isn't an easy one.
added on the 2021-04-07 11:05:07 by Subi Subi
Another idea: Make a music-disk with all the music that didn't pass the pre-selection and release it the next day in the demo compo. Everybody happy and even better put on show. :D
added on the 2021-04-07 11:27:47 by ham ham
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Another idea: Make a music-disk with all the music that didn't pass the pre-selection and release it the next day in the demo compo. Everybody happy and even better put on show. :D


I second that. Good Idea :)
added on the 2021-04-07 11:34:41 by D4XX D4XX
From my past experience as main compo organizer at a mid-size party for almost 10 years i know it is _really_ hard to handle preselection in a respectful manner. In 98% of the cases people put serious effort into their production, and preselecting them is always hard and requires serious thoughts. Can preselection be fair? No, because you delete the democracy before it can be voted upon. Thus it is just fair to not release the entries afterwards, giving people the chance to submit elsewhere. I know of a few tracks that were luckily preselected since they were a perfect fit for a demo later!

Now preselection is not only about figuring out the 15 best tracks, since no one wants a dubstep/trapcore/pop only compo. It's also about getting a good representation of what's there, providing a fine and enjoyable blend for the audience. So a good track can be preselected. People have to stop thinking that beeing preselected not automatically means that your work sucks and is not worthy to be played to the audience - because it's simply not true! I understand that preselection always feels like a personal insult to the Artist, but it has to be clearly communicated that this is NOT the case. In retrospective, we didn't communicate much why something was preselected, but - and this is what all orgas do anyway - explained the people why that was. Never ever got a threat afer that.

I felt it too often when i talked to individual artists that they felt disliked or they even smell a personal and global conspiracy. It's obviously not true. However, i also think that it shall be part of the game to NOT know if you're beeing played or not. If your image is shown or not. But you have to be aware that they cannot play 98 MP3s or show 124 photos, etc. It simply won't work with the audience, and the competition is broken.

TLDR: Don't tell the artist if they were preselected, it's part of the game. But raise awareness for the matter and especially justify the preselection process.
added on the 2021-04-07 12:41:15 by pro pro
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For Solskogen, as long as we've used Wuhu (which was... for a long time), we've let people know. We haven't gone out of our way to find people and scream YOU'RE NOT IN THE COMPO, but we've used the system, and over time people have picked up on this and learned to check their submission status.

For demos/intros/anything real-time, we reached out to people in the case of "we simply can't get this to run" of course, but the compo with the biggest impact has always been the music compo. It was always our most popular compo(s) and the number of entries the last few years was so high we couldn't play all of it. At some point, we made it a point to state clearly: "We will play a maximum of 15 songs" (or thereabouts; I can't recall exactly) and told people to check their submission status before the compo if they wanted.

Of course, people who aren't chosen are disappointed, but hey ho - that's life. I can only really recall one occasion where someone got genuinely outwardly upset, and this was _AFTER_ the compo when this person was absolutely furious because "their entry was clearly a lot better than what was played in the compo". Well, no; it wasn't, and that's why it wasn't played, but whatever.

Anyway; telling people up front: a clear yes from me. It also helps the compo crew a lot, because it cuts down on the "WHY DIDN'T YOU SHOW..." hounding post-compo.


We have separate juries too. We just log the comments of jury members so we can give the feedback easier. And as T-101 said, the Party Man which we use now has inbuilt jury comment feature so the comments are automatically collected by the party system.
added on the 2021-04-07 20:37:32 by rimina rimina
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Sure some people ask the feedback and reasons for being preselected or disqualified but it's not that many people in the end that it would create a major workload to organizers or at least that is the impression I have gotten.


The thing is that, at least in the mode how we organise music compos at Evoke, I couldn't give any feedback anyway, because the points are awarded by an external jury - I, in my function as compo organiser, only put together the jury and count the points together (on the exact preselection mode, which, I think, is the most balanced and fair solution, see here). In this case, any questions from non-selected musicians are even more pointless, because I can't answer them.


Sorry I quoted the wrong message. My answer above was meant to be a comment for this.
added on the 2021-04-07 20:58:19 by rimina rimina
IMHO the distinction should be made between these two cases:

- the compos where it's very common to have a preselection, "it's part of the game", eg the music compo.
Personally, I'm not sure a prior notice is needed in that case.

- the compos where preselection are the exception, eg the wild compo of Revision 2021.
Personally, I find it a bit harsh to not have a prior notice in that case.

---

Also, yes, it's nice to know that you executable prod has been "runned and tested and everything is fine", but from what I've seen, compo-orgas (particularly Revision's ones) are nice enough to provide feedback if asked.
added on the 2021-04-09 00:52:19 by wullon wullon
Concretely in the Party Management System:

=> for most compos, when you submit a prod, you have an optin checkbox to get notified if your prod isn't selected for the show.

=> for crowded compos (typically the music compos), instead of this checkbox you have a warning message
something like "we usually get many more submissions than we can show, and your prod has a fair probability of not being shown. We won't notify you in advance if your prod won't be shown."
+ link to an in-depth explanation (like on the Evoke website)
added on the 2021-04-09 01:10:47 by wullon wullon
i guess this is not really about the system itself... but

1. i have travelled from norway to germany to not have my track played. did not feel cool - but the party was awesome (breakpoint)
2. i have travelled from norway to germany to have my track played - and it placed last or so. (evoke).

both cases are not what you wished for - but it is not why you travel to a demoparty. meet cool people, drink beer and learn stuff. for me the demoscene is mostly about meeting awesome people and learning stuff. do you want to do graphics? ask any person at a demoparty and they willl say something like "HELLO! I DO NOT KNOW GFX - BUT TALK TO........".

and off we go. this happens all the time fortunately.

unfortunately you can go home after months or years of work without being shown. this happens. and it sucks. and it is part of the game. it happens to people who has been on the scene for years. and it ALWAYS sucks.

but we still go, right?
added on the 2021-04-10 06:34:08 by xrs xrs

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