MS Demoscene 2007 Home Edition Service Pack 2
category: general [glöplog]
Ah crap, so they did release it after all :)
stewpid question: isn't XNA supposed to be cross-platform ? so will those future 360 demos be available on PC too ?
In so far that it will compile on windows too, so you'll probably see the XNA compo entries ported to Windows in no time. All this for a free 360.
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Let them release the source as the XNA developer license dictates, then we'll talk :)
Source? This is the demoscene! "We" had matmathicians in the credits in the old days! "We" have big enough balls to figure how it's done.
I didn't know about that XNA detail. Is that to ensure microsoft that you're not trying to hack their machine?
I actually contemplated the possibility of making an xbox360 demo when I had the arsenal of hardware about 15 months ago (I had 2 black debug boxes and 2 white plus a big fuck off plasma screen, all for me). It was a time when I was working on the XBLA version of double dragon (which, to whoever wants to check it, has a 'demoeffect' eastern egg from yours trully). One of the things I did for that game was to make a 2D/3D 'engine' (not based on XNA) to work with MAME and some wrappers for the sound engine. My dilemma was:
Ok I understand how this damn thing works now and I have a framework that is actually quite good for making a demo. People will probably be surprised by a new demo in a new console.
On the other hand, the directx will annoy me in the long run and so will having to reset that damn thing every time it crashes - I don't make demos to annoy myself. Resource management (oggs/3ds etc.) might need an extra step (and if you have hundreds of ever changing resources the delays just add up). Eventually I will end up with an average demo that 95% of my audience will see in divx and I will have a problem finding a party to support this console.
So I gave up on the idea. I realised that by the time I had finished I would probably have already made two PC demos that were actually better and ran everywhere. Me and the hardware parted ways at some point this January and I won't miss it. Although things have been much worst with other consoles such as the PS2 for which I don't want to even express my feelings of hatred, as a developer :-).
Ofcourse kudos and total respect to those who will do it regardless of the problems. Things could be alot worst (PS2 / PS3)...
Ok I understand how this damn thing works now and I have a framework that is actually quite good for making a demo. People will probably be surprised by a new demo in a new console.
On the other hand, the directx will annoy me in the long run and so will having to reset that damn thing every time it crashes - I don't make demos to annoy myself. Resource management (oggs/3ds etc.) might need an extra step (and if you have hundreds of ever changing resources the delays just add up). Eventually I will end up with an average demo that 95% of my audience will see in divx and I will have a problem finding a party to support this console.
So I gave up on the idea. I realised that by the time I had finished I would probably have already made two PC demos that were actually better and ran everywhere. Me and the hardware parted ways at some point this January and I won't miss it. Although things have been much worst with other consoles such as the PS2 for which I don't want to even express my feelings of hatred, as a developer :-).
Ofcourse kudos and total respect to those who will do it regardless of the problems. Things could be alot worst (PS2 / PS3)...
doing console development fulltime makes the idea of doing a demo on one a little bit too close to sounding like work for me+panta. :)
otherwise my reasons are pretty similar to navis - too much stuff getting in the way of the fun. resetting the console all the time, potentially harder debugging, resource management, memory limitations, having to actually be sat with the kit to work on it (so my laptop time on the train would be a bit useless, and it's hard for others in the group to work on it) - unless you say "do it on pc first and port it", which is blatantly what we'd do, seeing as our demotool runs on pc anyway. in which case you may as well make a pc demo and save yourself the pain of porting it. it's all stuff that gets in the way of the fun. :) plus, already having experience of the platform would take away the major reason of doing it - the challenge of trying it.
good luck to the guys who are doing it, though. :) hope you dont murder us in the compo. :)
otherwise my reasons are pretty similar to navis - too much stuff getting in the way of the fun. resetting the console all the time, potentially harder debugging, resource management, memory limitations, having to actually be sat with the kit to work on it (so my laptop time on the train would be a bit useless, and it's hard for others in the group to work on it) - unless you say "do it on pc first and port it", which is blatantly what we'd do, seeing as our demotool runs on pc anyway. in which case you may as well make a pc demo and save yourself the pain of porting it. it's all stuff that gets in the way of the fun. :) plus, already having experience of the platform would take away the major reason of doing it - the challenge of trying it.
good luck to the guys who are doing it, though. :) hope you dont murder us in the compo. :)
navis: we might be in love with torturing ourselves or just plain stupid, but..
blog.hedelmae.fi
synesthetics.livejournal.com
ppexcess360.blogspot.com
:)
blog.hedelmae.fi
synesthetics.livejournal.com
ppexcess360.blogspot.com
:)
..oh yeah, and that's (obviously) XNA and NOT the full developer kits we're using, so double the pain.
i dont see the problem of developing through XNA. sure, it takes a while to get used to, but seriously, it's just an interface/api like any other...
gargaj: so far we've been tearing our hair out over the stupid limitations and seriously unexpected weird ways the IDE works (like the resource manager, for one)
Look on the bright side Gloom, at least you're not resorting to worse marketing ideas: http://www.unlockxbox.com/
I mean, it makes so much sense! Chips! :D
I mean, it makes so much sense! Chips! :D
Since that development is all official, will it be possible to run the demos on a normal (non modified) xbox360?
Provided you pony up a subscription to a creators' license for XNA, you will be.
This is exactly what keeps people from embracing the concept. Paying for a distribution medium for demos is so early 1990s Amiga PD floppy.
This is exactly what keeps people from embracing the concept. Paying for a distribution medium for demos is so early 1990s Amiga PD floppy.
what ? you cannot just run these demos off a dvd or something ?
no, at least not yet.
The blogs are nice, always fun to read a bit how others go about their demo development. Too bad that there probably won't be any screenshots etc. of early versions so we can see the progress, but I guess it would totally kill the "wow" factor at the compo if people already had seen the demoparts.
Regarding the 360 (and consoles in general) as a demoplatform - fixed hardware is always nice, you won't have to worry about people whining that your demo doesn't run/looks buggy on their GF2MX... ;)
However I'm not too hot on MS pay-to-develop/run homebrew idea.
Sony choose another path for the PS3 by allowing people to run Linux, but totally crippled it as a demo-platform since they don't allow access to the RSX (graphics hardware).
If either of those two do the right thing (MS allows development for free or sony opens up the RSX) I think they could be really nice demo platforms.
Regarding the 360 (and consoles in general) as a demoplatform - fixed hardware is always nice, you won't have to worry about people whining that your demo doesn't run/looks buggy on their GF2MX... ;)
However I'm not too hot on MS pay-to-develop/run homebrew idea.
Sony choose another path for the PS3 by allowing people to run Linux, but totally crippled it as a demo-platform since they don't allow access to the RSX (graphics hardware).
If either of those two do the right thing (MS allows development for free or sony opens up the RSX) I think they could be really nice demo platforms.
sdw: I don't think many of the bloggers will post screenshots, no. ;) We're having a crunch-session today so a blog-update should be posted later on btw. Working on object-loading and stuff. :)
..and yes; it sucks that you have to pay for a XNA Developer Club (or whatever) membership to be able to run "homebrew" stuff.
..and yes; it sucks that you have to pay for a XNA Developer Club (or whatever) membership to be able to run "homebrew" stuff.
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If either of those two do the right thing (MS allows development for free or sony opens up the RSX) I think they could be really nice demo platforms.
There's always one, two generations ago, machine hardware hope.
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what ? you cannot just run these demos off a dvd or something ?
Think real hard about it. Why would Microsoft want to lose control over the distribution model of XNA software?
Also, Navis and Smash: wouldn't you guys get into several shades of trouble if you used official devkits to create unauthorized binaries? Last time I checked it was not as simple to do this anonymously as with the original Xbox.
Shifter: you would have troubles with Microsoft and with the company you work for afaik. I wanted to try a small 360 demo last year with an official devkit but after gathering information here and there, there was a serious legal issue.
Can you do it when you get tired of your job?
what do you mean by trouble ? maybe that my company would be fined by Microsoft ? I never thought about that...
Why would that happen ?
I think the whole issue sucks and I'll try to stay as away as possible from 'demos on consoles'.
Why would that happen ?
I think the whole issue sucks and I'll try to stay as away as possible from 'demos on consoles'.
Navis: well there are many issues. Microsoft could complain, bitching both at you and your company, then your company could consequently get mad at you.
Those devkits are very expensive as you probably know and you're not supposed to do whatever you want to with them. Everything made with those devkits that goes out of your company goes through MS approval machinery.
Whatever is released on their console has an impact on its image and reputation. MS is quite strict about that.
Those devkits are very expensive as you probably know and you're not supposed to do whatever you want to with them. Everything made with those devkits that goes out of your company goes through MS approval machinery.
Whatever is released on their console has an impact on its image and reputation. MS is quite strict about that.
hm makes sense. ok then.