pouët.net

psonice: given that stockhausen wrote such massive volumes of theoretical and spiritual background for his work, and for the work of others - your only possible argument could be that *maybe* he wrote some bollocks music and then some post facto genius essays to explain it all away. and i don't think anybody here is enough of a scholar to say whether this is truly what he did, nor is anybody motivated enough to do a literature search and compare to first performance dates or recordings. and *even then* the argument would just boil down to - if its justification is post facto, is it any less genius art? or *even* can there *be* such thing as post facto justification -> because whatever process it was that caused a work to come into being, well... it CAUSED it to come into being

art is a fucking annoying topic to discuss unless you're a scholar who gets a big wood jobbie out of talking about it round and round.
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the single message of this thread, for me, is this: don't talk about big questions about art, its like talking about religion. you think you have the most insightful layman's insight until some nerd comes along because he knows some stuff you don't and because THOUSANDS of nerds discuss all this shit every single day in scholarly journals and scholarly communal wank-off sessions. the only individuals in a normal mix of people who enjoy talking about art or religion are the weirdos - everybody else thinks they're onto something until they realise they regret ever opening their mouth.

The three letter word represents for me something as disgusting as defecation itself. Why anyone would want to use it in public discussion baffles me.

Ok, let's do that - but how do we enforce that decision upon the rest of the world? ;)

knos: Ok, now I GOT to know: WHICH three-letter word are you talking about? It can't be "ass" since noone used that since your last post, so what is it? :)

i do also think that Stockhausen was nothing more than a lolcat thrown on a piano but wrapped in a shiny elitism glow, so please ban me too for different taste/opinion crime :-)

and Pierre Henry is the real genius :p

Alright, who let the dogs out???

Nutman: art

parapeter: Yeah, that makes lot of sense - or not?

forestcre: art is essentially subjective, people can talk about what they consider as art for themselves, but people who say to the others what is art and what is not are the ones who didn't get what art really is. The limit is thin but the difference is big.

i truly think that a game like soldier of fortune 3 is a piece of art, even if i'm pretty sure most people won't agree with me, that's fine, everybody is happy as long as an official art guideline isn't imposed.

which 3 letter word though, ART or BAN ?? :-)

ASD = ART :)

banning is art

forestcre: after seeing a lot of 'art' that is nothing more than a box on a table with a 'genius' description by the author explaining it, and considering myself how easy it is to think up some outrageous bollocks and an arty explanation for it, I now judge everything by the work and not the words.

And beyond that, I'd say if it needs words before you have a clue as to what is going on, it's bad art (but possibly good prose ;) That doesn't necessarily apply of course when you get a feel for the art, but read up on it to learn more :)

Some years ago at one of those classic music festivals he was invited to play in the opening concert (full of VIPs and stuff) and absolutely no one had any idea of what the guy does :D
It was very cool to see the persons comments. The concert ended with the room almost empty :D

He rules, and he's a lot more mainstream than Stockhausen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKz4qVmUz84 from 1967. Doesn't it sound a lot like Futurama's main theme?

Oh my gosh ! Pierre Henry ripped Matt Groening ! Nooooooooooo ! :DDD

Bender and Fry FTW !

Pierre Henry ripped Danny Elfman AND Nirvana!!! :D

just out of curiosity: Does anyone know of the comic strip 'The critics' in VIZ magazine (in the UK) ? very descriptive of the situation here I think..

psonice: you're saying you have a blank slate appreciation approach to everything? don't you realise that the implication of what you're saying is that great work has to be independent of its context, or do you have your own indiosyncratic category for 'words' as opposed to anything else that may form the context of art?

Navis: Post a link?

Oh, and drop that baby now and start another demo, ok?

forestcre: not entirely no. I'm saying that I look at the work with an open mind, and make a judgement on whether it's worth looking further or if it should be dropped from a great height. If it's a green box on a white table, with justification for wasting a box and a table written on a plastic card next to it, move on. If it's a green box on a white table but something about it makes you stop and wonder, read that card.

As for stuff that has to be taken 'in context' - I'd say that 90% of the time, it's not worthwhile learning what the context is. If you're aware of the context already, it's not an issue, if not then you're not going to get it without a fair bit of study and there's a lot of accessible art out there that needs none. Spend your time on something more important or interesting :) The bits that are really good but need context will probably be introduced to you along the way.

Nutman: navis is pregnant? Now THAT is an artistic statement!

I'll try to scan something.

We are constantly making new demos, babies or not.
So, soon...

i've unbanned buttler.

nutman: tolerance fades when dealing with people who insist on being reocuringly blind to what is being said.

hollowman: you're completly right, my apologies.

forestcre: defining art is a redundant infinite debate, but i'd like poueters on this very thread to dare try defining art again within few words :>

i distinguish 2 sorts of arts : the art of the artisan (craftman) which implies lots of technique and work, and the art of the artist which implies design and aesthetics ; one is essentially objective, the other essentially subjective.

and i consider demos as super masterpieces because they usually combine both :D