pouët.net

8-bit wonderland was fun, you can learn something from that. It would have got my vote too.

Keops: I misunderstood you back then, or some time ago you said you didn't like to release your prods at parties?

Indeed I probably never said that. I said we release our prods when they are done. If there is a party at that moment, good. If not, good too :)

Votekeydiscussion: You should come to Maximum Overdose and have look there. I think almost every visitor voted there, which is probably due to the fact that we are the best. And we didn't even have votekeys!

just to add my decadently burning pile of 100-dollar-bills to the thread:

party results are often weird (and especially so on evoke, for whatever reason). a lot of the demos that are still very well loved after years ended up behind demos nearly nobody cares about anymore. and it's not a matter of "good" vs "stupid" voters either - people vote for what they like now, not for what they'll like (or remember) in 5 years, and a lot of party visitors aren't active sceners, but locals or computer enthusiasts or "hangaround members" that a lot of sceners don't seem to regard as "full citizens". but not everyone is in the scene for the same reasons, and if they paid the entrance fee, they get to vote. that's what public voting means - and i think traces suggestion sounds pretty weird to say the least. just re-voting till you like the results isn't any better than faking votes in the first place. doing public voting includes the risk that the sum of votes from different groups of people add up to something neither side wanted to (for example, a crowdpleaser that most people voted 2nd or 3rd winning over 4 different demos that different groups of people voted 1st). if you aren't ready to accept that risk, don't submit a demo. but loudly whining about the "drunk audience" and "stupid voters" afterwards is about as low as you can go (which btw doesn't mean that i've never done it, quite the opposite, but it's still stupid behavior :)

everyone who has been in the scene for a few years knows the feeling of losing against a production that you feel is inferior to your own, and everyone who ever released a well-received demo knows the even more annoying "well, after X i expected more"-type of comment as soon as your next demo fails to be superior in every imaginable way. but the best way to deal with this is going "i'll show you all", not bitching about it on pouet (or any other forum). there's no better way to shut up bigmouths than to kick them in the balls with a production they didn't expect :)

ryg is right. People in general are local and/or drunk gamers that shouldn't be allowed to vote. The last five words of that sentence are my own, but eveything he says has been said before a million times and is in my eyes very good arguments in favor of jury-compos.

I've yet to see a good counter-argument for jury-compos. And no, "people will complain in any case" is not an argument.

ryg: wtf. I will never stop caring about Full Moon! hmm, ok you write "nearly nobody cares about". Still, how could you!

Hyde: but it seems you'd still have a problem if the jury is boozing themselves into sweet oblivion.

Ryg : you are right ... we will be back even if i felf a bit disapointed (I did not start this thread anyway). I ll be glad to share points of view after the BP 08 compo with a beer.

Bust I still beleive a mix of jury and public vote is a nice idea (50% each).

I don`t see why a jury would be better to judge the products except that they can rewatch the entries, have better time to judge, know the names and numbers of the entries and don`t have to rely on the big mystery of how long the delay will before the announced compo will start + knowing how to vote.

Just so you see what I mean. The time I had to do that was because after all the votes where done we found out that the graphic that ended up the winner was already presented in another party, well, not the same one, lets say that it was the final version of a graphic released in a previous party. So, as it wasn't the same we could just disqualify it. But as the people that already voted didn't know that I felt it was unfair to let it win. So, I contacted all the people that voted (that would be impossible with public voting) and explained the situation, so as soon as they saw the previous graphic they changed their mind and re-voted again, considering this time that the graphic was not done 100% for the party. Do you think it's weird now?

And again, I still think bcnparty and ifparty's vote system usually gets the most fair results, and if someone tries to hack it, as the votes are later on made public whoever hacked the system ends up having to apologize and owns a couple of beers to the moral winners :D

Just in case someone doesn't know how the system I'm talking about works:

The idea is using the participants for each compo as the jury for that compo, if any of the participants don't vote his/her/their production gets disqualified. Doing it this way, you make the participants to be a bit serious about the prods. Of course, for compos with low amount of entries you need to find extra juries tho.

You can get unfair results with this system too, but the good thing is that you can see the votes of each person and understand the results, instead of having to trust a system with public votes that you can't track, and there may be some magic inside. The orgos doesn't get any responsibility and don't have to defend their system as the system is transparent.

*So, as it wasn't the same we couldn't just disqualify it

seriously, why you couldn't? it's like releasing the final version of an already released demo. try to do this and you get disqualified in no time at every party, before or after the compo. what's wrong in disqualifying such prod? okok, rob is jarig doesn't count :)

Well, that would be, more os less, like disqualifying lifeforce as they're reusing some elements from previous prods :)

oh well, reusing elements is quite different than to releasing the same demo with just two colors changed or so. otherwise we must disqualify every single demo because they use the same engine codebase, or even the same coder omfg!!1 ;)

I release at parties to see the stuff on a bigscreen. The results doesn't really matter (that doesn't mean that I won't get mad if I find the results unfair, and I actually found the ASM results quite fair)

Archmage: Not correct, old friend. In case of a jury, you have a small number of indivuals to blame (or give praise!). It's so much more satisfactory than having to deal with a nameless crowd.

Same idea about the voting jury. This is a legacy idea back from the 90's parties where it unfortunately never took place AFAIK.
All the voting thing shouldn't be down to the audience. We should have major voters in a separate jury. Voters who would be there for their known skills and wisdom.
A certain amount of point is given by this jury, and this other part by the audience. 60%/40%
Cocoon should have won. Period. In the past, a lot of very nice productions have been pushed out of the road because of thick crowd pleasers productions.
Therefore we should stop with this voting system. Really.

Same with music pre-selection, but it's a very differente debate.It's the same kind of unfair feeling though. Let me help remind to myself that I will need to put my sequencer in dnb/techno/whatever-bumping-mode for the next BP.

woa, I shouldn't answer to help this thread to stop, but well...
I don't like that jury idea, it will NOT change anything. the only difference is, that people will moan about the jury instead of the visitors.
imho the best solution is to skip the #1, #2, #3 voting system and give visitors the possibility to give points to all entries. the 1,2,3 system is crap when you have several entries you like equally as you have to decide for ONE.
apart from that: take it easy. if your demo is misplaced in the end but good, you will get the respect you deserve.
yes sure, there's pricemoney and fame and the additional applause and shit... yadda yadda. but every mature person should get over something like that within a few days.

It's good to have people trying to submit different things but then, if they do it, they just can't complain, it's a part of the process I guess.

See you at the next voting system then, when people will whine about the jury voting for their friends.

The voting system will change but the whiners won't.
The same people will come and complain again, claiming their prod was greater and more elite according to THEIR criteria, the jury being awfully tasteless and biased.

I have no problem with crowd pleaser productions. I expect to be pleased and have fun when watching a demo, not bored do death.

I'm with Keops.

The boring factor is really different from a person to an other. Some people can listen to classical music all their life long while some other would blow a fuse after 1mn shouting "KAKA CLASSICAL MUSIC. I WANNA MY HARDCORE BACK"

IMHO, the goal should be to reward the amount of work involved in a creating process, it ain't completely about being bored or having fun (which is the case in parties votes). I can agree that a good idea is often more interesting than a load of massive effect, but the goal of demo is to demonstrate first with the bigscreen, the PA, and all those stuff that make a demo entertaining, huh?

Let's have the funny prod and all those things released BETWEEN demoparties. Oh, I forgot to mention that there's hardly demos released BETWEEN parties, not to say none. Even the invitro are released during parties.