Breakpoint 2007
category: general [glöplog]
Hahah, excellent! BP once again stirs up controversy by deleting the tracker compo :D! I like it :D
Now let the complaining begin to bring this compo back that only had 7 entries anyway! \o/
Oh, and remember, 64mb should be enough for everyone!!
Now let the complaining begin to bring this compo back that only had 7 entries anyway! \o/
Oh, and remember, 64mb should be enough for everyone!!
oh, and ofcourse i'll be there!
Well it's about time to get rid of the tracker music compo. Music compos mostly equals torture anyway. And I say this as a musician :p
Sorry for LB and Reed for a smaller paycheck though...
Sorry for LB and Reed for a smaller paycheck though...
64mb is far too big. go for 32 or people will just include porn to fill the size and annoy others.
high res textures = better demos, wellknown fact.
Gargaj: preselection rulez... :-)
thanks for the 64 mb
Bad idea not to provide a tracked music compo.
Pro:
- modern trackers like renoise provide a bunch of hi quality realtime dsp effects; thus, trackers lost their "oldskool"-character, and can be thrown in a box with the other pro studio tools -> put everything in the same compo.
- music compos feature a shitload of bad releases nobody wants to hear
Contra:
- The traditional tracked music rules feature interesting restrictions: 1.44mb of samples are NOT much, and basically do not allow for top notch quality sound in certain genres. One has to find creative solutions when trying to imitate "natural sounding" acoustic instruments, for example. Vocals are almost impossible. Doing tracked music is somewhat like size-coding. (does not apply to chiptunes)
- mastering tracked music (optimizing sound) is very hard. samples have to be preprocessed with destructive effects and a lot of tracker-trickwork has to be done if a musician wants to make a .xm sound like studio-quality. (renoise is some kind of an exception because it features eq's, compressors, filters etc.)
- another "nice" restriction of trackers is that _everything_ has to be done with samples, and a simple sample-player engine. Samples were revolutionary cool in the 80s and 90s, but nowadays it's some kind of challenge to use _only_ samples. In certain genres this requires a lot of creativity and skill as well.
- a chiptune won't have a chance in the streamed music compo.
- The streamed music compo at breakpoint already has ~80 submissions, and that's already too much. Being played in the streamed music compo is like "having won the jury price", and this will become worse. (let's just assume that preselection is necessary and okay for a moment, plz)
My suggestion:
do a tracked music compo, but disallow the use of filters and effects in renoise!
And now debate this until somebody dies jumping enraged out of the window.
-jco
Pro:
- modern trackers like renoise provide a bunch of hi quality realtime dsp effects; thus, trackers lost their "oldskool"-character, and can be thrown in a box with the other pro studio tools -> put everything in the same compo.
- music compos feature a shitload of bad releases nobody wants to hear
Contra:
- The traditional tracked music rules feature interesting restrictions: 1.44mb of samples are NOT much, and basically do not allow for top notch quality sound in certain genres. One has to find creative solutions when trying to imitate "natural sounding" acoustic instruments, for example. Vocals are almost impossible. Doing tracked music is somewhat like size-coding. (does not apply to chiptunes)
- mastering tracked music (optimizing sound) is very hard. samples have to be preprocessed with destructive effects and a lot of tracker-trickwork has to be done if a musician wants to make a .xm sound like studio-quality. (renoise is some kind of an exception because it features eq's, compressors, filters etc.)
- another "nice" restriction of trackers is that _everything_ has to be done with samples, and a simple sample-player engine. Samples were revolutionary cool in the 80s and 90s, but nowadays it's some kind of challenge to use _only_ samples. In certain genres this requires a lot of creativity and skill as well.
- a chiptune won't have a chance in the streamed music compo.
- The streamed music compo at breakpoint already has ~80 submissions, and that's already too much. Being played in the streamed music compo is like "having won the jury price", and this will become worse. (let's just assume that preselection is necessary and okay for a moment, plz)
My suggestion:
do a tracked music compo, but disallow the use of filters and effects in renoise!
And now debate this until somebody dies jumping enraged out of the window.
-jco
If there is no way to get the tracked music back into the official compos, there is always a way to organize a inofficial one, as the ascii-scene managed well over the last few years for an ascii/ansi-compo.
the world moved on. high-res textures is the future. that's why we decided to move from 256x256-textures to 257x257 in the next shitfaced clowns demo.
and how about throwing compos? why there aren't throwing compos?
and how about pie eating compos? why did they disappear?
jco, i think we should stop discussing, saddam just died jumping enraged out of the window.
and how about pie eating compos? why did they disappear?
jco, i think we should stop discussing, saddam just died jumping enraged out of the window.
64MB that's insane!
With 64MB you can have some 4 minutes of high quality video, and some people will abuse from it. Now I know for sure that I won't be able to see any fairlight demo :D
With 64MB you can have some 4 minutes of high quality video, and some people will abuse from it. Now I know for sure that I won't be able to see any fairlight demo :D
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With 64MB you can have some 4 minutes of high quality video
I want to see that. Seriously. Please provide me with 4 minutes of video in 64MB which can rival the output of my graphics card (so better start at 1920x1080@60fps).
it all looks the same in youtube.
Quote:
Sorry for LB and Reed for a smaller paycheck though...
i appreciate your concern, but i quit, remember? :)
"smash : gotta second gloom here. you proved with the final of tactical battle loop that those "necessary" hi-res textures aren't really necessary at all, and just make the demo run like crap on a lot of machines... "
wergle/parapete:
no, actually, we didnt cut any textures down in size in the tactical battle loop final (apart from a couple of accidentally oversized 2000x2000 ones). i did DDS them and fix some code-related bugs which ate too much memory (i.e. they used it in precalc but didnt give it back) though.
ironically, if we had more space for track one, the demo would have run better. we had to make a lot of DDS textures into JPGs to get the size limit in a hurry. (which sucks.)
and by the way, more space means you can avoid precalcing stuff so it loads faster, optimise offline so it runs better, use larger but more efficient formats, calculate mips nicely offline, etc etc.
anyway, the 64mb limit is great news. :)
wergle/parapete:
no, actually, we didnt cut any textures down in size in the tactical battle loop final (apart from a couple of accidentally oversized 2000x2000 ones). i did DDS them and fix some code-related bugs which ate too much memory (i.e. they used it in precalc but didnt give it back) though.
ironically, if we had more space for track one, the demo would have run better. we had to make a lot of DDS textures into JPGs to get the size limit in a hurry. (which sucks.)
and by the way, more space means you can avoid precalcing stuff so it loads faster, optimise offline so it runs better, use larger but more efficient formats, calculate mips nicely offline, etc etc.
anyway, the 64mb limit is great news. :)
Quote:
anyway, the 64mb limit is great news. :)
yeah, specially for scene.org host(s).
Teel, you're probably the first one to call usb fingerprint readers a paycheck :D
.. and my few cents on a few things:
Now isn't this moreover the lack of "personal preselection" from the person making/entering the tune? If it's shit, why not keep working on it until it's something you can be proud about, say, five years later. I've fallen for this too sometimes in order to keep up my routine of "not going to a party empty-handed".
Actually 1.44mb for samples is a fucking lot and does allow for top notch quality sound if one bothers with all the stuff required.
Yeah like this for instance?
Enter preselection.
Thinking of how a typical tracked compo is watched/voted, why bother with all the trick work when none of the technical aspects are not viewed, judged or given any thought anyway..
As for the 64mb limit, well.. I prefer demos compact but still think that this new limit is worth trying out. Hopefully it'll show in the actual compo quality :)
.. and my few cents on a few things:
Quote:
music compos feature a shitload of bad releases nobody wants to hear
Now isn't this moreover the lack of "personal preselection" from the person making/entering the tune? If it's shit, why not keep working on it until it's something you can be proud about, say, five years later. I've fallen for this too sometimes in order to keep up my routine of "not going to a party empty-handed".
Quote:
1.44mb of samples are NOT much, and basically do not allow for top notch quality sound in certain genres.
Actually 1.44mb for samples is a fucking lot and does allow for top notch quality sound if one bothers with all the stuff required.
Quote:
Vocals are almost impossible.
Yeah like this for instance?
Quote:
The streamed music compo at breakpoint already has ~80 submissions
Enter preselection.
Quote:
..destructive effects and a lot of tracker-trickwork has to be done if a musician wants to make a .xm sound like studio-quality.
Thinking of how a typical tracked compo is watched/voted, why bother with all the trick work when none of the technical aspects are not viewed, judged or given any thought anyway..
As for the 64mb limit, well.. I prefer demos compact but still think that this new limit is worth trying out. Hopefully it'll show in the actual compo quality :)
smash : well okay, i stand corrected! sorry. i'm only bitter because i can't afford to upgrade my machine... :)
I want a farted-music-competition.
Enter it in Streaming. But try not to follow through...
Quote:
In that case make it 640 mb, that should enough for everyone. ;)64mb is far too big. go for 32 or people will just include porn to fill the size and annoy others.
I want to say a couple of words about the reasons why we decided to not have a separate tracked music compo at breakpoint this year:
The overall quality of this compo was declining; people increasingly saw it as the easy little brother of the streaming music compo, promising a less fierce competition for those who still used trackers or could be arsed to do so. In the meantime, trackers matured into software packages that offer everyone the means to make studio-quality music with them - Renoise, Sk@le, Modplug Tracker and a host of others can still output plain tracker files - but they can do so much more. Other trackers do not produce the file types allowed in the tracked music compo (psycle, buzz and others). We think trackers should face the music. Many of the entries in the streaming compo are already made with trackers. We decided to stop giving a couple of sequencers an extra break (an extra compo!). Trackers do not need this protection. We're confident that tracked music has more than just a fighting chance in the streaming music compo.
The overall quality of this compo was declining; people increasingly saw it as the easy little brother of the streaming music compo, promising a less fierce competition for those who still used trackers or could be arsed to do so. In the meantime, trackers matured into software packages that offer everyone the means to make studio-quality music with them - Renoise, Sk@le, Modplug Tracker and a host of others can still output plain tracker files - but they can do so much more. Other trackers do not produce the file types allowed in the tracked music compo (psycle, buzz and others). We think trackers should face the music. Many of the entries in the streaming compo are already made with trackers. We decided to stop giving a couple of sequencers an extra break (an extra compo!). Trackers do not need this protection. We're confident that tracked music has more than just a fighting chance in the streaming music compo.
I second pretty much everything jco said.
Although I don't track anymore, I find it very sad that the tracking compo has been discontinued.
Bring it back and I might deliver an entry!
Although I don't track anymore, I find it very sad that the tracking compo has been discontinued.
Bring it back and I might deliver an entry!
I think Wayfinder has a bloody good point. Tracker compo entries are either annoying chiptunes, bland sample house. They are rarely tracker wizardry. (do correct me if i'm wrong though)
The rules have hardly been fair since renoise (with standard effects) is allowed, which can do so much more than plain tracker formats. And it basically became a 'do I have something old and wonky lying around I can enter' compo for lazy musicians.
Don't get me wrong, respect for trackers that still track plain formats, but I think there is an overflow in music compo's as it is.
One point for Wayfinder though, 'more than just a fighting chance' for a mod vs a well mastered mp3? There should be bloody fair preselection then :)
Oh, and the same actually would go for graphic compos. Freestyle, raytrace, render.. it can all be combined.
Welcome to 2007!
The rules have hardly been fair since renoise (with standard effects) is allowed, which can do so much more than plain tracker formats. And it basically became a 'do I have something old and wonky lying around I can enter' compo for lazy musicians.
Don't get me wrong, respect for trackers that still track plain formats, but I think there is an overflow in music compo's as it is.
One point for Wayfinder though, 'more than just a fighting chance' for a mod vs a well mastered mp3? There should be bloody fair preselection then :)
Oh, and the same actually would go for graphic compos. Freestyle, raytrace, render.. it can all be combined.
Welcome to 2007!