The 64 MB limit at BP07
category: general [glöplog]
nystep: let's bring back the dentros!
I'm not against raising the limit, I just think 64MB is too large of a step. 20MB is hardly being pushed nowadays. 32 would be really really reasonable. (Then again I never made a demo bigger than 10MB so I guess I'm not the one to have a word in this anyway.)
Yeah, I also think the step is quite big - but as outlined by the compo orgas, the 64MB "limit" makes it clear that it's not meant as a limit in the scene-sense at all - after all, nobody will say "wow, this demo is cool because it only uses 10MB instead of 20MB", unlike in the intro-compos...
Ok, I think we need to settle on some ground rules here.
Please stop saying "nobody", "none" and "we all", etc.
There ARE some people, who think a 10MB demo is cooler than a 20MB demo....at least in the aspect of size, ie.
A 20MB demo can have a cooler design than a 10MB demo (and vice versa) and there's also a chance that the 20MB demo has better design than the 10MB demo.
But, as I said, there ARE people who think it's impressive when you do more with less (yes, of course I am one of them) and I don't even think you need to be C64, Amiga, Atari or Falcon scener to be one of them.
As a musician I hate being limited, too, but I feel absolutely proud when my music is being crammed into an Amiga demo. I gladly give up my striving for excellent sound quality when it comes to music in Amiga demo, just because I don't care about what the limits will do to my music.
And again, these limits are a challenge that one might pick up some skills trying to work around or bend a little - it's not necessarily bad.
I rant...sigh....
Just wanted to say: Stop saying "nobody" when you really mean "the majority"....
Please stop saying "nobody", "none" and "we all", etc.
There ARE some people, who think a 10MB demo is cooler than a 20MB demo....at least in the aspect of size, ie.
A 20MB demo can have a cooler design than a 10MB demo (and vice versa) and there's also a chance that the 20MB demo has better design than the 10MB demo.
But, as I said, there ARE people who think it's impressive when you do more with less (yes, of course I am one of them) and I don't even think you need to be C64, Amiga, Atari or Falcon scener to be one of them.
As a musician I hate being limited, too, but I feel absolutely proud when my music is being crammed into an Amiga demo. I gladly give up my striving for excellent sound quality when it comes to music in Amiga demo, just because I don't care about what the limits will do to my music.
And again, these limits are a challenge that one might pick up some skills trying to work around or bend a little - it's not necessarily bad.
I rant...sigh....
Just wanted to say: Stop saying "nobody" when you really mean "the majority"....
Ok, will do.
Guess I'm part of the majority, then since I'm all for this. HDR textures, highpoly meshes, etc. can make good use of the extra space.
Once the limit is above a few MB the challenges aren't really related to anymore, anyway - you _can_ get below the limit, it's just a bit of a nuisance - and all too often solved by sacrificing quality (e.g. heavily compressing textures and the soundtrack).
Once the limit is above a few MB the challenges aren't really related to anymore, anyway - you _can_ get below the limit, it's just a bit of a nuisance - and all too often solved by sacrificing quality (e.g. heavily compressing textures and the soundtrack).
If a demo uses more than 32mb it better have some cool advanced shit, my understanding of demo is "how much cool shit can i cram into such space"
32Mb should be enough for anyone.
pls scene don't die ------ live, LIVE!!!
32Mb should be enough for anyone.
pls scene don't die ------ live, LIVE!!!
this only makes it clear that demos represents a very personal aspect of enjoyment towards the users, in which all finds its own pleasures in watching. this is great! but it's just as important to let the demomakers do what they do, that whats makes their demos great, in so many ways.
If someone with the skills to make a great demo, dont like the compo rules at bp07, im sure they'll find another compo to enter their great demo to. but let they decide where they release, and dont bother the bp07-compo crew anymore(very especially if you dont even make demos, and, if people wonder what you like about the demoscene, or the demos, im sure they'll ask you in good time), they actually know what they are doing.
If someone with the skills to make a great demo, dont like the compo rules at bp07, im sure they'll find another compo to enter their great demo to. but let they decide where they release, and dont bother the bp07-compo crew anymore(very especially if you dont even make demos, and, if people wonder what you like about the demoscene, or the demos, im sure they'll ask you in good time), they actually know what they are doing.
Heh....I'm not gonna quote Albert Einstein 100% correct here, but he said something about "any fool can make things bigger, more voilent, more....bla bla...something....but it takes genius to move the other way"....something like that, it was...
How about if we tried to move in the opposite direction, just for 2-3 years? What if we started at 64MB this year, 32 next year and ended with 16 MB in 2009 and that we THEN took a look at the productions over the last 3 years and made an evaluation then?
How about if we tried to move in the opposite direction, just for 2-3 years? What if we started at 64MB this year, 32 next year and ended with 16 MB in 2009 and that we THEN took a look at the productions over the last 3 years and made an evaluation then?
nutman: i'm looking forward to seeing your pc demo at bp07.
what about a 20mb amiga demo from your end, smash? ;)
maali: i'd love to, except i dont code on amiga - but then i'm also not asking them to change their compo rules, either. :)
Well, if I was a coder, I might do one.
But I'm not. I'm just a scener and I do believe that gives me the right to comment on things like this!
On the other hand (and sorry for me getting so harsh here), there's no need to do anything on PC for Amiga groups, since Amigas obviously still can beat the crap out of PCs DESPITE the fact that we don't even come close to a 64MB limit, DirectX x.x, PSx.x, mighty 3D cards, zounds of RAM, etc.
No, we have a unchanging boundary, which we try to beat year after year and this year even the gamelamers at Assembly seemed to be able to recognize and appreciate that (shit, me tink missa gonna getty a lotta enamisa right here nowsy!).
Sorry, my gallbladder just emptied itself....
What I'm trying to say is that you really don't NEED raising the limit year after year, as there's a lot of fun and skill-gaining in trying to beat what you already know is unbeatable - it's very satisfying, really...and I can even see that, being no coder at all!
But I'm not. I'm just a scener and I do believe that gives me the right to comment on things like this!
On the other hand (and sorry for me getting so harsh here), there's no need to do anything on PC for Amiga groups, since Amigas obviously still can beat the crap out of PCs DESPITE the fact that we don't even come close to a 64MB limit, DirectX x.x, PSx.x, mighty 3D cards, zounds of RAM, etc.
No, we have a unchanging boundary, which we try to beat year after year and this year even the gamelamers at Assembly seemed to be able to recognize and appreciate that (shit, me tink missa gonna getty a lotta enamisa right here nowsy!).
Sorry, my gallbladder just emptied itself....
What I'm trying to say is that you really don't NEED raising the limit year after year, as there's a lot of fun and skill-gaining in trying to beat what you already know is unbeatable - it's very satisfying, really...and I can even see that, being no coder at all!
Besides, I wasn't joking at all.
I thought it could be really cool to see what the great PC coders could come up with, if we lowered the bar from year to year, size-wise..
I thought it could be really cool to see what the great PC coders could come up with, if we lowered the bar from year to year, size-wise..
ok, i give up, i'll make too many enemies by replying with what i think the truth of the matter is. :)
about your last comment tho - you know what we can come up with in a small size limit cos you see it every year in the 64k and 4k compos. isnt that enough? :)
about your last comment tho - you know what we can come up with in a small size limit cos you see it every year in the 64k and 4k compos. isnt that enough? :)
smash: good call :)
for myself, i try to avoid talking about things i dont know shit about, why make a fool of myself? its not my trip.
for myself, i try to avoid talking about things i dont know shit about, why make a fool of myself? its not my trip.
ryg: i remember delivering a cdrw with an entry, the orgas forgetting to include it in the compo and keeping the cdrw since they couldnt find it anymore -_- oh well, they played the track outside the compo in the end so who cares :)
Quote:
1. To the idiot who stated that he didn't want 320kbps mp3 in a demo:
I don't know if anyone said it in this thread, but I sure as hell have said it up to multiple times in different production-comments.
Quote:
Compression degrades the sound, and as a musician it's hard to accept that the bitrate has to come down to make room for another 3D-model or some higher quality textures.
After everything from 50 to 100+ hours' work on a track, it's really bitter to hear the boom of the bass weakened and the clarity of my hihats and cymbals fade away. And for what? The track doesn't get any more "realtime" or "demoscene" with lower filesize, it's still just an audio stream. Lower filesize limits means poorer audio quality, and nothing else.
Oh come off your high horse -- there is no real justification for 320 kbps encoded .OGG or .MP3-files in demos. I might not be as anal about sound-quality as you, but I dare you to hear the difference between a 160 kbps Ogg Vorbis and a 320 kbps Ogg Vorbis -- I doubt that even the most audiophile among us can do this.
..and even if they can -- what difference does it make? Audio is only as good as it's weakest link anyway, and I'm willing to bet you quite a large number of beers that the PA-system at a party, the speakers in some laptop or the built-in soundcard that 99% of the scene uses will mess more with the (audible) quality of your track than the encoding did ever. :)
not to mention EQ's differences and fuck-ass compression some parties use in their PA's...
Gloom: Havent u heard that men are dogs which is why they can hear the difference between 320 kbps and 160 kbps Ogg Vorbis.
Hell, I commented on FB's popular demo calling it a 64k-intro. So much for paying attention to filesizes. :)
Hyde: Nexus Seven is a 1 disk intro! :)
IMHO 64 MB is a bit too much for now. I think 32 Mb is enough for the next 2-3 years (note, I'm not a demo coding specialist), and would probably force some good habits to demo coders (at least in using correct file formats)
* cosine convolved (diffuse) HDR cubemaps can be very low res. For specular, where hi res is needed, give logUV TIFF a try instead of .HDR.
* for high poly models (...did you ever see one in a demo?) do noy use ASE/OBJ and these bullshit; not even raw binary VA/IA or .3DS.
* for keyframed anymations, PLEASE do not sample your model VA at 15/30 fps as .MD3 does (hm... does TBL do this?). Use MD5 or skeletal animation. I even suspect some people used sampled geometry to fake marching-cubed metaballs.
* JPG2K is already quite old...
if after this "effort" you still need >32 Mb, ok, go ahead with the 64 Mb limit. But we will have to put a limit somewhere (128 Mb?) before downloading a video is more attractive than downloading the demo. Or may not...?
* cosine convolved (diffuse) HDR cubemaps can be very low res. For specular, where hi res is needed, give logUV TIFF a try instead of .HDR.
* for high poly models (...did you ever see one in a demo?) do noy use ASE/OBJ and these bullshit; not even raw binary VA/IA or .3DS.
* for keyframed anymations, PLEASE do not sample your model VA at 15/30 fps as .MD3 does (hm... does TBL do this?). Use MD5 or skeletal animation. I even suspect some people used sampled geometry to fake marching-cubed metaballs.
* JPG2K is already quite old...
if after this "effort" you still need >32 Mb, ok, go ahead with the 64 Mb limit. But we will have to put a limit somewhere (128 Mb?) before downloading a video is more attractive than downloading the demo. Or may not...?
64 MB is currently too much imo. A first leap to 32MB sounds more reasonable.
Most people will waste those 64MB the same way newskool cracktro zealots waste megahertz to make a jerky sinescroll with 20 sprites on modern PCs.
Most people will waste those 64MB the same way newskool cracktro zealots waste megahertz to make a jerky sinescroll with 20 sprites on modern PCs.
i doubt many people will use it at all.
