R.I.P. Karlheinz Stockhausen
category: general [glöplog]
and the fact that artists usually need to be artisans and that artisans usually consider themselves as artists, leads to the confusion of what art means and what it is right to judge as global.
to take an universal example (hehe), nobody can seriously refute that ASD dudes are talented coder, musician and graphician, but some have legitimately the right to think that ASD prods are super cheesy and kitsch :p
(i like kitsch :D)
(i like kitsch :D)
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Banning him is a bit overreacting, eventhough he was being a stubborn, arrogant bastard with hardly any skill and logic to back him up.
Whatever happened to "don't feed the trolls" when it really, really matters? I'd say the lot of you were a lot fucking worse than this guy.
The man has talent to get even you into a fray that has no merit whatsoever.
Words have whatever meaning we choose to assign to them. If you try to make it work the other way around, you're likely to be confused and find yourself in endless arguments. If you want to actually communicate rather than win a debate, it's best to just define your terms and move on.
(that was on the "art"/"three-letter-word" subject)
.. I should probably clarify that I don't what's called art. It doesn't have a universal definition, and even if it did, it's unlikely that it would be aligned with what I value.
rats off to ya!
Well here I am again. I suppose I could go on a rant about how unfair and petty my ban was, and all the hypocrisy here, but it's just a website and a way to fill some time.
I think Psonice has added some great points and I agree that the value should be in the art, not in the description, context or any other attempt to justify it's creation.
Also as Navis said, take a look at The Critics in Viz. For some of you it will be like looking in a mirror.
I think Psonice has added some great points and I agree that the value should be in the art, not in the description, context or any other attempt to justify it's creation.
Also as Navis said, take a look at The Critics in Viz. For some of you it will be like looking in a mirror.
And finally, I want to point out why I have been disrespectful in this thread...at least in your eyes.
I'm passionate about music, I work hard to learn about it, compose it and understand it and the world is full of struggling musicians, artists and writers looking for a break, and who really deserve a break. I still consider myself an amateur but there are some phenomenal talents out there who can't get their work into the public eye.
So I resent all these pretentious arty types who throw something together with a long pretentious promotional blurb and get fame, fortune and adulation for it. People like this are stealing opportunities from the real hardworking, passionate and genuine artists out of the industry, forcing them to busk in the street or play in working men's clubs etc.
Perhaps many of you believe Stockhausen is the real deal, but there ARE con artists who pull this shit and take a lot of suckers for a ride. Fair enough if someone is stupid enough to pay thousands of pounds for faeces on a stick or 4 minutes of silence, then they deserve what they get and I can't blame the con merchants for cashing in.
But if it wasn't for people like me who accuse these people of being hacks and challenge them to prove themselves, they'd have a real easy time.
I'm passionate about music, I work hard to learn about it, compose it and understand it and the world is full of struggling musicians, artists and writers looking for a break, and who really deserve a break. I still consider myself an amateur but there are some phenomenal talents out there who can't get their work into the public eye.
So I resent all these pretentious arty types who throw something together with a long pretentious promotional blurb and get fame, fortune and adulation for it. People like this are stealing opportunities from the real hardworking, passionate and genuine artists out of the industry, forcing them to busk in the street or play in working men's clubs etc.
Perhaps many of you believe Stockhausen is the real deal, but there ARE con artists who pull this shit and take a lot of suckers for a ride. Fair enough if someone is stupid enough to pay thousands of pounds for faeces on a stick or 4 minutes of silence, then they deserve what they get and I can't blame the con merchants for cashing in.
But if it wasn't for people like me who accuse these people of being hacks and challenge them to prove themselves, they'd have a real easy time.
What zest said got me thinking. Like he said, there's a range of 'art', between skilled craftmanship and pure abstract ideas, you could say.
To me, the extreme ends of that range are great, but somehow pointless. At the craft end, with no meaning to it it becomes an exercise in skill (like say a tiny intro that's impressive but ugly). It's technically impressive, and it's a great way to increase your skill, but nobody minds if they don't see it again.
At the other end you have pure ideas, with very little skill (like that room with the lights that turn on and off). With so little there to actually explain the meaning, you rely on the description to understand the art, and the art becomes little more than a demonstration of what the artist is talking about. Taken too far, you might as well just have the description and leave the art at home. I guess that's where Stockhausen is for me.
Anyway, the best stuff is everything in the middle (and by that I mean it should have big ideas and great skill, not half of each ;)
To me, the extreme ends of that range are great, but somehow pointless. At the craft end, with no meaning to it it becomes an exercise in skill (like say a tiny intro that's impressive but ugly). It's technically impressive, and it's a great way to increase your skill, but nobody minds if they don't see it again.
At the other end you have pure ideas, with very little skill (like that room with the lights that turn on and off). With so little there to actually explain the meaning, you rely on the description to understand the art, and the art becomes little more than a demonstration of what the artist is talking about. Taken too far, you might as well just have the description and leave the art at home. I guess that's where Stockhausen is for me.
Anyway, the best stuff is everything in the middle (and by that I mean it should have big ideas and great skill, not half of each ;)
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So I resent all these pretentious arty types who throw something together with a long pretentious promotional blurb and get fame, fortune and adulation for it. People like this are stealing opportunities from the real hardworking, passionate and genuine artists out of the industry, forcing them to busk in the street or play in working men's clubs etc.
I think the 'art types' are way less of a concern than the producers that churn out mindless, throw-away bubblegum pop.
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So I resent all these pretentious arty types who throw something together with a long pretentious promotional blurb and get fame, fortune and adulation for it. People like this are stealing opportunities from the real hardworking, passionate and genuine artists out of the industry, forcing them to busk in the street or play in working men's clubs etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Whatlinkshere/Karlheinz_Stockhausen&limit=500&from=0
You might notice that there's a big, BIG lot of respectable musicians that expressly refer to Stockhausen's work as an inspiration. You might (if you bother to read the page itself) that he was indeed working hard, _all of his life_.
So either you're still (pretending to be) a total fuckwad that can't recognize reality even if it's shoveled into your arse by a coal mining excavator, or Stockhausen is the best con artist I've EVER seen in my life and deserves heaps of respect purely for that. Your choice.
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here ARE con artists who pull this shit and take a lot of suckers for a ride
you sound like the kinda person who throws up after he's told his delightful dinner was in fact goat's testicles.
haha! finally the roots of your anger come out! you resent that somebody's getting more attention than you!!
tell me this then - have you never heard of myspace? i thought i was the shit when i was 16, because i had a cd and nobody else in school had one. nobody would have known where to plug a stereo jack if i put it in their hands, pointed them in the right direction and gave them a good kick their arse. then oh my word, a whole WORLD of people doing the same thing as me? and oh jesus, some of them are getting fame and recognition for it, and i bet some of them didn't even work as hard as i did. its not doing your mental life any good - fight to become the best in the arena that is yours, but for your sake start with the right arena. if you have the respect and adulation of your friends and family, that's when you can go take on the world. because its a couple of people who have such original ideas that they take everyone by surprise.
stockhausen, cage, messaien, reich, riley et al. are stealing opportunities from tavener, peter maxwell davis + X number of experimental musicians. experimental composers are not going to plug a hole in the set at the Ram's Head any more than Banjo Joe and the Rhythmical Down and Outs are going to plug a hole in London Sinfonietta sets at the Barbican. what the *fuck* man, you guys need to critically evaluate your statements sometimes - just like you assume these guys don't put any thought into what they do - that's how you go about your thinking, or that's how it looks to us.
i mean, Kid606 what a fucker, i bought some of his CDs and then i was like, what the fuck man he's stealing opportunities from the real hardworking, passionate and genuine artists out of the industry, forcing them to sit in the bedrooms or play in their friends' living room on sunday etc.
i mean, Stanley Clark what a turdlicker, i bought some of his CDs and then i was like, what the hell man he's stealing opportunities from the real hardworking, passionate and genuine artists out of the industry, forcing them to form no-go combos or play in local jazz jams organised by someone's deaf grandad etc.
i mean, Megadeth what the fuck man, i bought some of their CDs and then i was like, where the heck do they get off stealing opportunities from the real hardworking, passionate and genuine artists out of the industry, forcing them to rock out in their dad's garage or play battle of the bands gigs where their girlfriends dump them and take cocaine-shits on the bonnet of their truck before shagging some member of a more successful metal band etc.
tell me this then - have you never heard of myspace? i thought i was the shit when i was 16, because i had a cd and nobody else in school had one. nobody would have known where to plug a stereo jack if i put it in their hands, pointed them in the right direction and gave them a good kick their arse. then oh my word, a whole WORLD of people doing the same thing as me? and oh jesus, some of them are getting fame and recognition for it, and i bet some of them didn't even work as hard as i did. its not doing your mental life any good - fight to become the best in the arena that is yours, but for your sake start with the right arena. if you have the respect and adulation of your friends and family, that's when you can go take on the world. because its a couple of people who have such original ideas that they take everyone by surprise.
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People like this are stealing opportunities from the [...]
stockhausen, cage, messaien, reich, riley et al. are stealing opportunities from tavener, peter maxwell davis + X number of experimental musicians. experimental composers are not going to plug a hole in the set at the Ram's Head any more than Banjo Joe and the Rhythmical Down and Outs are going to plug a hole in London Sinfonietta sets at the Barbican. what the *fuck* man, you guys need to critically evaluate your statements sometimes - just like you assume these guys don't put any thought into what they do - that's how you go about your thinking, or that's how it looks to us.
i mean, Kid606 what a fucker, i bought some of his CDs and then i was like, what the fuck man he's stealing opportunities from the real hardworking, passionate and genuine artists out of the industry, forcing them to sit in the bedrooms or play in their friends' living room on sunday etc.
i mean, Stanley Clark what a turdlicker, i bought some of his CDs and then i was like, what the hell man he's stealing opportunities from the real hardworking, passionate and genuine artists out of the industry, forcing them to form no-go combos or play in local jazz jams organised by someone's deaf grandad etc.
i mean, Megadeth what the fuck man, i bought some of their CDs and then i was like, where the heck do they get off stealing opportunities from the real hardworking, passionate and genuine artists out of the industry, forcing them to rock out in their dad's garage or play battle of the bands gigs where their girlfriends dump them and take cocaine-shits on the bonnet of their truck before shagging some member of a more successful metal band etc.
Hey, Stockhausen is _indeed_ excellent !
Right now I'm listening to "Joy" (for harps), and it's amazing ! It's like a forgotten chapter of "2001 : a Space Odyssey" !
Big, big kudos and RIP, Mr Stockhausen.
Right now I'm listening to "Joy" (for harps), and it's amazing ! It's like a forgotten chapter of "2001 : a Space Odyssey" !
Big, big kudos and RIP, Mr Stockhausen.
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So I resent all these pretentious arty types who throw something together with a long pretentious promotional blurb and get fame, fortune and adulation for it.
i wonder what world you live in.
in the one i live, where i actually know and promote experimental artists, attend and organize experimental music concerts i have yet to meet one that gets properly paid for anything other then travelling expenses and manage to get something edited higher then limited editions of 250 in labels that arent their own.
even relatively big names in the contemporary experimental scene like merzbow, ryoji ikeda and alva noto still have problems making a living out of their art, where the hell are they stealing fame fortune and adulation from the myriads of crap poprock acts?
no, seriously buttler, you're a clueless idiot. get your head out of your ass.
I see that bad language and harsh personal attacks are still the de facto standard for some of you while arguing in the Pouet BBS. Whatever happened to answering in a decent, civilized manner? Can anybody tell me for how long you would have had to be discussing on various internet forums before you start feeling fed up and start dishing out these kind of pointless and uncalled for aggressive replies?
I need a warning, so I can avoid walking that path.
Seriously, think about it. You're grown-ups, for Christ's sake. You've probably learned to moderate your language and still get your points through. Now go prove it.
I need a warning, so I can avoid walking that path.
Seriously, think about it. You're grown-ups, for Christ's sake. You've probably learned to moderate your language and still get your points through. Now go prove it.
nutman: go fuck yourself, decent civilized manners are available only for those who make an effort to deserve them. not half-baked trolls with ludicrous opinions of conceptual unaesthetics and childish debacles of ego-absorbed anathemas. child brains understand child ways, in this case he's even too stupid to understand those. i could especulate on the origin of the personality disorder but quite frankly it's a waste of time and energy to find a source when the cure depends on the patient. he's lost and you're barely struggling. no civilized argumentation can save you from your shellshock.
well, it's clear that the troll doesnt stop trolling when the ban is lifted.
i really really wish there would be an option in pouet that i could just 'ignore' posts written by certain people so i wouldn't need to read such crap.
buttler, before you can go calling someone who's made a career of over 60 years in music, you should maybe take a look into his music for more than watching one minute of video in youtube. but, that would of course require you to have other agenda than trolling.
during the 20th century the art grow up from the level of being certain objects (painting, sculpture, book) or live acts (mainly concerts & theatre) to have a much wider field of abstrac things like idea and process. and it has come to a point where the question is this art (or music as well) is not valid anymore, since everything can be seen as art if the context is right.
what matters whether something is good and intresting. and whether the ideas that a piece is trying to communicate are worth communicating.
btw. especially anyone who's mentioned a 'recording of 4minutes of silence' is a fucking ignorant cause such a piece doesn't exist. before you diss some work you should try to get some idea what exactly is the work.
i really really wish there would be an option in pouet that i could just 'ignore' posts written by certain people so i wouldn't need to read such crap.
buttler, before you can go calling someone who's made a career of over 60 years in music, you should maybe take a look into his music for more than watching one minute of video in youtube. but, that would of course require you to have other agenda than trolling.
during the 20th century the art grow up from the level of being certain objects (painting, sculpture, book) or live acts (mainly concerts & theatre) to have a much wider field of abstrac things like idea and process. and it has come to a point where the question is this art (or music as well) is not valid anymore, since everything can be seen as art if the context is right.
what matters whether something is good and intresting. and whether the ideas that a piece is trying to communicate are worth communicating.
btw. especially anyone who's mentioned a 'recording of 4minutes of silence' is a fucking ignorant cause such a piece doesn't exist. before you diss some work you should try to get some idea what exactly is the work.
Well, who said no good comes of a thread like this. It reminded me to watch this again. And just take a look through the comments, in light of this discussion.. plus how many have 'changed sides'? ;D
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btw. especially anyone who's mentioned a 'recording of 4minutes of silence' is a fucking ignorant cause such a piece doesn't exist. before you diss some work you should try to get some idea what exactly is the work.
Exactly! Because it still needs a piano player to be performed live!
well, just as an outsider who is reading pouet from time to time for amusement: it seems there are some people who like noise, and some people who have more of a taste for melody.
None of both sides can understand the other - even though every child should know that tastes are different.
But the noise-faction is simply neither capable of running a discussing in a mannered way, nor accepting that some people may have a different taste.
Unfortunately the noise-party seems to have the power on this site, luckily this is not yet the case in the real world.
None of both sides can understand the other - even though every child should know that tastes are different.
But the noise-faction is simply neither capable of running a discussing in a mannered way, nor accepting that some people may have a different taste.
Unfortunately the noise-party seems to have the power on this site, luckily this is not yet the case in the real world.
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Exactly! Because it still needs a piano player to be performed live!
Is that the actual thing? Because I can remember a comedy sketch from long, long ago where the piano player comes on, sits down, 'prepares' for several minutes then walks off. Perhaps there has been a mix up?
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None of both sides can understand the other - even though every child should know that tastes are different.
ORLY? Can't you enjoy both styles equally?
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But the noise-faction is simply neither capable of running a discussing in a mannered way, nor accepting that some people may have a different taste.
Unfortunately the noise-party seems to have the power on this site, luckily this is not yet the case in the real world.
I'm sure not even 10% of the users of this site like noise. And saying that ps (an influent person running the site) can't apreciate anything other than noise is clearly wrong.
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Is that the actual thing?
Sure. If the music score is empty someone still has to read it. And it's not just an empty piece of paper. It has some timing information.
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btw. especially anyone who's mentioned a 'recording of 4minutes of silence' is a fucking ignorant cause such a piece doesn't exist. before you diss some work you should try to get some idea what exactly is the work.
Yes it does, click this link... www.4minutesofsilence.com
It looks like a dead link, but what you are hearing is 4 minutes of silence. Btw, it loops after 4 minutes.
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i mean, Megadeth what the fuck man, i bought some of their CDs and then i was like, where the heck do they get off stealing opportunities from the real hardworking, passionate and genuine artists out of the industry,
Your argument fails because Megadeth and their like ARE hardworking, passionate and genuine. You can't just compose and play their kind of music overnight....whereas with Stockhausen you can.
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nutman: go fuck yourself, decent civilized manners are available only for those who make an effort to deserve them. not half-baked trolls...
All your posts look like they were written by a little kid throwing a tantrum. And when you don't like how the debate is going you ban the opposition, like the kid taking home his ball.
You don't even understand irony and hypocrisy!
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I think the 'art types' are way less of a concern than the producers that churn out mindless, throw-away bubblegum pop.
On this I agree, Okkie! Don't get me started on those morons!
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So either you're still (pretending to be) a total fuckwad that can't recognize reality even if it's shoveled into your arse by a coal mining excavator, or Stockhausen is the best con artist I've EVER seen in my life and deserves heaps of respect purely for that. Your choice.
It's the latter. I do believe Stockhausen is a con artist. I said some pages back that I think he's a genius, just not a musical genius. Not quite the best con artist, that award goes to whoever came up with the idea of bottled water.