If you're a newbie in demo scene, how to start?
category: general [glöplog]
Well, as the topic says, if you're a newbie in demo making, how do you actually start and how do you develope a demo from nothing to something? I myself am a newbie in demo scene and know a very little about coding but I would like to know more.
So now, guru's, it's up to you to share the information... please! Where to find more info about the demo making, FAQs, how to start a project, how to learn simple routines in coding demo (eg. 'simple' scrollers and that sort of stuff) and so on?
So now, guru's, it's up to you to share the information... please! Where to find more info about the demo making, FAQs, how to start a project, how to learn simple routines in coding demo (eg. 'simple' scrollers and that sort of stuff) and so on?
i'd say first you should decide what do you want to do...
if you want to be a graphician, just draw, get yourself some nifty draw-app, and draw around, occasionally learn how to handle a 3d app, kowboy has a series of great tuts on 3dsmax
if you want to be a musician, get some tracker (ft2/it if dos, mpt/madt/skale if w32), rip some samples, and start making sounds. or get a "pro" audio package like Buzz and tweak around with the knobs.
if you want to be a coder, learn C, wrap up a DDraw window and write some effects. or if you want hardware, go to NeHe for ogl tuts or get the latest dxsdk and look around the samples and docs.
if you want to be a graphician, just draw, get yourself some nifty draw-app, and draw around, occasionally learn how to handle a 3d app, kowboy has a series of great tuts on 3dsmax
if you want to be a musician, get some tracker (ft2/it if dos, mpt/madt/skale if w32), rip some samples, and start making sounds. or get a "pro" audio package like Buzz and tweak around with the knobs.
if you want to be a coder, learn C, wrap up a DDraw window and write some effects. or if you want hardware, go to NeHe for ogl tuts or get the latest dxsdk and look around the samples and docs.
"how to start a project"
that's a bit more complicated.
if you want a 256b/4k, all you need is coding skills. if you want music, you can figure out a little ditty by yourself.
in 64k/demo, first you need to get a music. either write one, or ask someone. once you have it, keep listening to it and figure which effects would match to it. make the effects, sync them, voila.
additionally you may get a graphician/designer who can arrange stuff like colors, add backgrounds, change textures, and get on your nerves. :)
that's a bit more complicated.
if you want a 256b/4k, all you need is coding skills. if you want music, you can figure out a little ditty by yourself.
in 64k/demo, first you need to get a music. either write one, or ask someone. once you have it, keep listening to it and figure which effects would match to it. make the effects, sync them, voila.
additionally you may get a graphician/designer who can arrange stuff like colors, add backgrounds, change textures, and get on your nerves. :)
geez.
forgot the most important part:
watch as MANY demos as possible
!!!
forgot the most important part:
watch as MANY demos as possible
!!!
get a time machine, go back to 1991 and take a look...
if you want to be a musician, get some tracker (ft2/it if dos, mpt/madt/skale if w32), rip some samples, and start making sounds. or get a "pro" audio package like Buzz and tweak around with the knobs.
buzz? pro? you've GOT to be kidding me
buzz? pro? you've GOT to be kidding me
what to do as scene newbie?
- praise Farbrausch and honor their work
- visit at least one demoparty of your choice
..not really..but praise that group that you like and start doing something creative like coding, "webcoding", gfx, 3d, 2d, musician, Asciier..etc
And believe in da "spirit" ;-)
- praise Farbrausch and honor their work
- visit at least one demoparty of your choice
..not really..but praise that group that you like and start doing something creative like coding, "webcoding", gfx, 3d, 2d, musician, Asciier..etc
And believe in da "spirit" ;-)
reed: note the quotes around "pro".
oh and i forgot:
waching much demos is helpfull to understand what technical status the scene have reached but it can maybe block your own crative influence (e.g. copy effects instead of trying to invent new ones)..but thats only subjective and maybe a theorem that not fit to every man ;-)
waching much demos is helpfull to understand what technical status the scene have reached but it can maybe block your own crative influence (e.g. copy effects instead of trying to invent new ones)..but thats only subjective and maybe a theorem that not fit to every man ;-)
sorry, seems like i suffer from an inexistant sense of humour tonight :)
ize, here's a hint: whenever someone tells you to check out demos from the first half of the 90s, check out amiga demos, not pc demos :)
Whoa! Thanks dudes for good ideas! It seems like I'm gonna buy a few bottles of beer, start downloading demos and watch them whole weekend ;)
Seriously, I'm more of a gfx-guy. I like to draw things (with a pencil and computer) and it might be a good idea to find a group who would be able to get me under their wings and let me do some graphics for 'em... Only thing is that it looks like 2D-artists are nowadays out of date, am I right? So it would be a good idea to learn some 3D arts too, as Gargaj mentioned earlier.
I praise all the demo makers, that's for sure. I can't even imaginate how much of freetime it takes to learn coding, even if it was only one a simple cube rolling on the screen. Huh! Maybe some day... maybe... er... yeah, maybe.
Seriously, I'm more of a gfx-guy. I like to draw things (with a pencil and computer) and it might be a good idea to find a group who would be able to get me under their wings and let me do some graphics for 'em... Only thing is that it looks like 2D-artists are nowadays out of date, am I right? So it would be a good idea to learn some 3D arts too, as Gargaj mentioned earlier.
I praise all the demo makers, that's for sure. I can't even imaginate how much of freetime it takes to learn coding, even if it was only one a simple cube rolling on the screen. Huh! Maybe some day... maybe... er... yeah, maybe.
reed richards, I'll put that behind my ear :) I've actually seen a few Amiga demos and they were just so beutiful, especially 2D graphics in them were.
Tomcat, sorry, I'm all out of timemachines. You wouldn't have any to spare? ;)
If you want to become an experienced democoder, I'd give the following advice: code demos.
Yes, the only way of picking it up is by actually doing it. where to start? Open a window, draw some 3dobjects, play some music. Release it, and later on I'll GUARANTEE you that you'll be ashamed of it. But hey, thats a proof of progress.
Yes, the only way of picking it up is by actually doing it. where to start? Open a window, draw some 3dobjects, play some music. Release it, and later on I'll GUARANTEE you that you'll be ashamed of it. But hey, thats a proof of progress.
ize, 2d artists aren't at all obsolete, and it's not easy to find 2d artists who 1) are very skilled and 2) know not only about designing, but also about the technical side of demos so they really are useful in the process of putting a demo together.
oh and i agree with your comment about the graphics in amiga demos :)
oh and i agree with your comment about the graphics in amiga demos :)
oh, and first of all: get youself a copy of Microsoft Visual Studio 7.1 and MSDN!
Really saves you a lot of trouble.
Really saves you a lot of trouble.
Ohbtw... It's really a good idea to do MORE than just one thing. Knowing how things work, the reasons for the limitations really helps you understanding not only how to do cool stuff WITH the limitations, but also what limitations can be overcomed. Also knowing visual arts really helps you knowing where to put the limitations, what stuff is needed for the engines etc.
Be creative!
Be creative!
I'm surprised nobody mentioned demopaja yet. Get hold of that, stick an mp3 you like into it, make some gfx and have a play. That should give you a good idea of how demos work, some of the technical issues you need to be aware of, and you can have plenty of fun with it too :)
Then you can get a group going, or join one, and start work on some proper stuff :) (still using demopaja if you want to)
Then you can get a group going, or join one, and start work on some proper stuff :) (still using demopaja if you want to)
"should give you a good idea of how demos work, some of the technical issues you need to be aware of"
god you're so wrong... demopaja gives the idea that demos are restricted to use 2d bitmaps and 3d scenes. no object morphing, no proper particle systems, no realtime physics, no cool stuff considering what people call effects. face it, a demo llike Variform is simply impossible to do in a standard demopaja. (of course you can write the proper plugins but the SDK is a bitch and you finish faster if you just code a demo itself)
i'd also like to note that in my eyes, a standard out-of-the-box demopaja is just a fancy FlashMX which can do models and hwaccel stuff as well. you can have a 2D-demo done in it in like 10 minutes, but in case you want to use an effect that's NOT built-in... the REAL problems appear.
as for the technical issues... write a demo with paja and be amazed how SLOW can it be. (for the record: i loaded 85dollars in paja because it was slow, and after 5 minutes of analyzing, i removed 1(!) effect (the grainlayer, which is basically just 1 blended poly), and the whole speed got tripled...) and since paja is GL (read: no caps checking possible), you may as well find yourself in trouble trying to watch your demo on a different vendor's card, or notice that something is not looking quite the way it looked when you made it.
do NOT get me wrong: paja is a cool tool if you want to use it just for synchro and design. but it's NOT the "ultimate demomaking tool", and definetely does not define the ways of demomaking.
god you're so wrong... demopaja gives the idea that demos are restricted to use 2d bitmaps and 3d scenes. no object morphing, no proper particle systems, no realtime physics, no cool stuff considering what people call effects. face it, a demo llike Variform is simply impossible to do in a standard demopaja. (of course you can write the proper plugins but the SDK is a bitch and you finish faster if you just code a demo itself)
i'd also like to note that in my eyes, a standard out-of-the-box demopaja is just a fancy FlashMX which can do models and hwaccel stuff as well. you can have a 2D-demo done in it in like 10 minutes, but in case you want to use an effect that's NOT built-in... the REAL problems appear.
as for the technical issues... write a demo with paja and be amazed how SLOW can it be. (for the record: i loaded 85dollars in paja because it was slow, and after 5 minutes of analyzing, i removed 1(!) effect (the grainlayer, which is basically just 1 blended poly), and the whole speed got tripled...) and since paja is GL (read: no caps checking possible), you may as well find yourself in trouble trying to watch your demo on a different vendor's card, or notice that something is not looking quite the way it looked when you made it.
do NOT get me wrong: paja is a cool tool if you want to use it just for synchro and design. but it's NOT the "ultimate demomaking tool", and definetely does not define the ways of demomaking.
I surely wasn't defining it as the ultimate demomaking tool :)
I was merely suggesting that for somebody starting in demos, with no coding knowledge, and more into graphics, its great to play around with, and see how design, syncro, and some basic effects work. Surely that's gotta be better than learning demo design + syncro while learning c++ ;)
I was merely suggesting that for somebody starting in demos, with no coding knowledge, and more into graphics, its great to play around with, and see how design, syncro, and some basic effects work. Surely that's gotta be better than learning demo design + syncro while learning c++ ;)
paja is no real guide to learn how to sync and design, demos and music videos are... but it's a nice tool to try out stuff.
You learn best by experience, which is what makes it good to mess around in demopaja. And somebody already said to watch a load of demos :) But yeah, music videos too. Also art books, to learn about colour schemes, perhaps composition too. And then even more experimenting.
yeah, so the recipe might be:
1. watch demos. watch music videos. watch movies. watch the nature. read books.
2. create something.
3. throw it away, as it is crappy. (you will be proud of, but it'll be crappy. trust me :) )
4. go to 1.
and sometimes you can switch 3 with "release it"... but that's a big decision, not to be taken lightly.
for 2 you may use demopaja, but if you feel that gives you not enough freedom it's time to move over...
1. watch demos. watch music videos. watch movies. watch the nature. read books.
2. create something.
3. throw it away, as it is crappy. (you will be proud of, but it'll be crappy. trust me :) )
4. go to 1.
and sometimes you can switch 3 with "release it"... but that's a big decision, not to be taken lightly.
for 2 you may use demopaja, but if you feel that gives you not enough freedom it's time to move over...
actually, I believe that demos should be hardcoded. sure, one should be able to use some splines and load some 3dscenes, but demos are in my definition pure hacks used to show off penis-size and coding-skillz. Each coder/group should fucking code his own demo/demosystem, thats the fucking essence of demomaking. and yes. reinvent the wheel. optimize it. learn to walk before running and all that. fuck demopaja, fuck smode, fuck redsector intro creator, and last but not least... fuck plasma texture generators!
(oh, and fuck linux)
WAR OUT!
(oh, and fuck linux)
WAR OUT!