pouët.net

[quote="shifter"]So let me get this straight, you're not expecting the common compo watcher to give the mac a fair game on it's own, so you'd rather compete with the "big" boys and get laughed at some more?

Sorry, it reads like you *like* to be singled out and ridiculed.[/quote]

It's not like we don compete in the PC compos when we can. However, we all know that atm PC is the most popular platform for demos, this ofcourse makes the compo clearly more fun to watch as the quality if preselection is higher and usually there are more releases.

I don't see why gammawave, or me, or anyone else would want to compete in a small, probably kindof bad compo wich nobody will watch, even if there are 3 great demos i would call it a sucky compo and not worth to breakup your boozing because of :-)

And yes, Iam all for combined compos, Assembly is a good example of how good compos can be.

I don't see why gammawave, or me, or anyone else would want to compete in a small, probably kindof bad compo wich nobody will watch, even if there are 3 great demos i would call it a sucky compo and not worth to breakup your boozing because of :-)

True. But then again, will there be MAC demos to compete? :)

One slamdunk by Gargaj ;) But hey, bring on the Mac demos. Even if they're a separate compo, I''d certainly take a peek.

shameless plug follows:

Scene Event has a habit of doing cross-platform demo compos for some years now. Consoles, PC, Amiga and Java are accepted per default, give us a Mac demo and we're happy to let it compete with the rest of the boys and girls. ;)

Really, Mac and PC have the same graphics hw today, and isnt it the graphics we care about in the end?
I don't get it, just let them compete. A good demo is still good even if it is on mac.

shifter: i dont know any scandinavian party that doesnt have very liberated view of platforms in compos. usually your demo is accepted as long as you submit a valid compomachine (exeption for ASM wich is a big party... but they allow prety much all platforms anyways:)

ASM allowed Komplex' XBox demo in the main compo, so I guess they are not that bad either.
I guess it's just a German thing (don't mention the war) :)

Gammawave: While I welcome any kind of public discussions regarding this topic, please absolutely stick to the facts when quoting organizers, and especially note if something is an official breakpoint announcement or the personal opinion of a scener.

> There has been some discussion on the
> mac.scene.org forums after breakpoint had
> announced that mac demos will not be allowed
> to compete against pc demos in a combined
> compo at breakpoint.

Well, not really. The current situation inside the Breakpoint team looks like this:

Last month there has been a discussion if we should allow mac demos in the pc demo compo. There has been a vote, and the organizing team decided they do not want this.

This is different from a "combined demo compo", it was a "accept mac entries in pc demo compo"-decision.

Other than that, the team is discussing for quite some time if we should totally drop platform compos (e.g. amiga/c64/pc/console compos), and instead do compos based on hardware "classes" (high-end/low-end/8-bit). This discussion is in progress, and there has been no decision.

My PERSONAL view on all this is:

Just putting the mac into the pc demo compo is unfair. Yes, mac have equal power to PCs these days. But also the xbox has more or less similar power. Same goes for Amiga PPC. And PCs running QNX, BeOS and whatever.

Up until now demo/intro competitions were defined by the platform. This surely has advantages - one of them is that the audioence is actually able to watch those demos on their machines. Yes, regarding PC demos there is that ATI/NVIDIA thing, but as you know we are working on this (different discussion here)... anyway. If you own a PC and watch PC compos, you will be able to watch the entries on your computer. If you own an Amiga you will be able to watch those. And if you are a C64 addict, the c64 compo entrys will make you happy at home.

Allowing macs in the PC demo compo will break this logic. Reality is: >99% of all sceners won't be able to watch mac demos, while the vast majority will be able to watch pc demos.

IMHO, if we allow macs in pc demo compo, the consequence has to be to allow ANY comparable hardware in that compo = no more platform compos.

This is what the BP organizing team is discussing. Changing this IMHO would be a MAJOR change to the competition rules, so this is nothing we should decide from one day to another just because some mac sceners complain. We need time to think this through, and what's most important: We need feedback from the scene if that is what people want.

Still my personal opinion: I highly doubt we'll have enough time to discuss this with the scene and come to a decision before breakpoint 2004. We only have 2 months left, there are TONS of MUCH more important things to organize, and we really would have to announce such a major change in the compo system early before the party. I think this is something that should be discussed for BP05. I know that quite a few people would like to see such a change, but I do not think it's important to have this change THIS year. After all, neither the Console, Amiga nor the C64 sceners up until now have complained they want to get rid of their own compos ASAP.

> If there are more than three mac demos, a special
> mac demo compo will be held.

Well yeah, that's probably how every party organizer would react. If there is a new platform that has enough entries for a new competition, of course it will get one.

> I would like to code demos for mac, but I don't
> feel very motivated to do so if it means having to
> compete in a second-rate compo that nobody will
> watch.

Sorry, but for me this sounds like you - a mac coder himself - think that:
- most mac demos suck
- people don't like mac demos
- macs are second-rate

"we suck" is not really a good reason why macs should be allowed in the pc demo compo.

Please look into the past on how the pc sceners had to fight to get pc compos back when the amiga was the box to be on.

My VERY personal opinion is that the mac scene should stop whining and demanding, and instead focus on producing demos. Prove you are relevant.

> I don't think I should have to prove anything.

As far as I can think back, all plattforms and sub-scenes inside the demoscene first had to prove they are in need for own compos before they got those.

> What do you think? Should demo parties have
> platform-based compos (pc compo, amiga compo
> etc.), or hardware class-based compos (high-end,
> low-end etc) where equivalent platforms can
> coexist?

That indeed is the question to ask the community.

scamp

holy fuck, scamp just gave a lesson to optimus on long posts...

I don't think this should matter. Firstly it's not the audience competing with the demos, but the creators, so I think you should look at what the creators want, not at what the audience wants. Secondly I'm not sure if this is what the audience wants. At eg ASM, they combine many 'similar' platforms in one compo aswell, and I don't think the audience minds. I don't, at any rate.



Watching demos is one thing... But you are denying sceners to MAKE Mac demos aswell, this way... Why make demos when you cannot enter the compo anyway? Besides, the Mac sceners might want to make a PC port, or provide a DivX for the PC sceners, it's happened many times before.



That's because they actually HAVE a compo. Mac sceners never had that afaik, so they have to either enter the wild-compo, or the PC-compo. I think it's clear which compo they want to join.



Yes, and as said before, these Mac-sceners are ex-PC sceners... Are you sure you want to make them go through the same again? Especially since the situation is a lot different (as said before, Amigas were very different from PCs, so the demos on the platforms were also very different. But PC and Mac are nearly identical).



I think you missed the point. They ARE producing demos, and they want to enter a compo to prove that they are relevant, you are denying them this opportunity for no good reason, I think. Just let someone pitch their Mac at the compo and run their demo. It's not going to hurt.

Up until now demo/intro competitions were defined by the platform?

up until now platforms meant something uncomparable, by means of capabilities and performance.
You really can't compare an amiga to a PC, neither a C64 to an Amiga.
But if you take the "Amiga" platform, that's very diverse too. how can an A500 compete against a PPC? (too harsh, but you might get the point.
right now the MAC and the PC ARE comparable.

>99% won't be able to watch those prods at home?
almost same with linux prods. yeah, we might watch'em, but no way I'm gonna install a linux for this purpose only. And my linux server is far too weak for multimedia, not to speak about having no monitor/keyboard installed. With the same effort i can find a friend /enemy/ someone with a mac, and pay him a beer to let me watch a demo on his machine.

Anyways, there were Win demos, and we hate them, and told no way we're gonna install windows.
There were HWAccel demos, and told no way we're gonna buy an accel card.
and now there are mac demos, who knows, maybe we'll shift some day that direction....

Bohemiq is currently considering a Mac demo at BP. Together with gammawave and lator, that would make 3 demos?

Scamp, you're obviously not listening.. first of all, "we" don't suck. There are obviously people who like the demos we've made on the pc - otherwise we wouldn't have four democompo wins and two second places on out merit list. And no, I'm not talking about "who can make the ugliest plasma" compos. We've been playing with the "big boys" for some time, and it seems absurd that we should "be quiet and know our place" just because we're moving to another platform.

Tell me, if a group you know something about (say, farbrausch or haujobb (who _have_ made mac ports of some of their demos)) decided to release a mac demo at bp, would you also tell them to "go compete in the wildcompo until you have proven yoursel worthy! Remember how the pc sceners had to fight hard yada yada..." ?

Seriously.
If we can kick replay, tpolm and fairlight ass with pc demos it should be safe to assume that we can kick the same butts with mac demos.

*sigh* I really don't like beating my chest like that, but I'm running out of ideas on how to make you understand you can't treat us like lamers who deserve to be stepped on.

Claiming that all mac sceners should have to fight and "go the hard way" because "it's always been that way" is just as retarded as... well, using that argument for just about anything.

Expecting us to be humble when faced with that combination of arrogance and ignorance is possibly even worse.

gammawave, it's not ME saying the mac platform and its demos suck. It is YOU:

I would like to code demos for mac, but I don't feel very motivated to do so if it means having to compete in a second-rate compo that nobody will watch.

If (your) mac demos are cool, why on earth do you think nobody would watch a mac compo? Sorry, this is ridiculous. People would watch a mac compo if it has good entries.

Please try to get my point: Saying you don't want to compete with mac demos in a mac compo because mac demos suck DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.

The only reason why a mac competition could by "second-rate that nobody will watch" would be: lame entries. And those entries would still be lame, no matter if they are put in pc demo, c64 intro or 4 channel music compo...

sigh.

yep.

yep to gammawave, that is...

The problem with combined demo compos is not the hardware, it is the namevoting. I'm pretty sure that if Mac's are allowed in the compo that 99% of al regulars on mac.scene.org will vote for the mac demos, even if they're utter crap. Amiga sceners would vote mostly for Amiga demos, X-Box sceners mostly for ... well, you get the point. So if you have a combined democompo at your party I think that the first thing you should do is drop the public voting and replace it by 100% jury voting...

And btw, people who don't want to code demos if it means competing in "second-rate compos" and who say things like "you are denying sceners to MAKE Mac demos" really have an attitude problem. What happened to making demos just for the fun of it? If all scene pioneers had thought like you than there would never have been a scene.

scamp: I'm sorry to have to say this, but it doesn't seem to matter much anymore, so...

You are obviously not able to understand basic English. Please go read gammawave's postings again until you reach enlightenment.

sparcus: Thank you for holding us Mac sceners in such high regard. It's wonderful to hear from a self-claimed former party organiser that we have no concept of demoscene culture and etiquette. I guess you must have missed that several of us have repeatedly explained how many of us, myself included, are far from new on the scene. If not, I would very much like to hear why you are "pretty sure" of your claims.

Since I'm speaking only for myself here, however, I'd like to state for the record that I vote for demos based on their artistic value and I don't care a whet-slap about the platform used. We also port our demos to the PC, to enable a larger audience.

You make a compo second rate by separating it from comparable demos and putting it in it's own for purely political reasons. You make a compo second rate by reducing it to a few entries. You make this potential compo second rate by your own prejudice towards its entries.

As to the origins of the scene, it has always been about having your art seen by as many as humanly possible. How many of us would still be making demos if no one ever watched them? Please don't give us a 'valiant pioneers' rant.

elmindreda: Don't twist my words, I never said that Mac sceners have no concept of demoscene culture.

About the namevoting: I have seen too many compos being fucked up because of this. Personally I never vote at parties because I see so many people voting for their friends around me all the time that I know beforehand that voting fairly isn't even worth my time. And I'm pretty sure that combined compos will make this even worse because many sceners are still very religious when it comes to their own precious scene.

And finaly, about showing your demos to as many people as possible: you don't need compos for that. I made my statement about the "pioneers" because they also didn't have compos, and still many people saw their demos.

I have no problem with the Mac scene nor with combined compos (if public voting is dropped), but I do have a problem with people who think they have a goddamn right (pardon my french) to demand something from party organisers who spend a lot of their spare time on organising an event.

sparcus: I didn't twist anything. You claimed exactly that when you said that us "mac.scene.org regulars" would all vote for Mac demos, regardless of quality. You seem awfully anxious to make us the official spokespersons of all Mac sceners, instead of what we are, namely individual sceners, some of whom would like to have their demos shown at Breakpoint.

How regular can you be on a site less than two weeks old, anyway?

Well, if all sceners are religious about their platforms then you don't need to worry, do you? PC sceners far outnumber Mac ones, so it won't matter even if we have a secret voting conspiracy at mac.scene.org.

Yes, but their demos were distributed via warez bundling, copy parties and BBSes. It was still about being seen.

I'd like to know who demanded anything. I have yet to see a single demand, though I've seen a lot of arguments opposing the Breakpoint organisers' decision in this matter. Arguments, not demands.

While this thread wasn't supposed to become a personal flame thread (thank you mrs goth mac girly :) - afaik sparcus isn't a "self-claimed former party organiser" but sparcus/nostalgia, one of the organizers behind the takeover party series...

But oh well, as it seems impossible to discuss all this in a constructive way, I'll better stop wasting my time and instead organize something usefull (see BP website in a few minutes) :)

elmindreda: my statement about mac.scene.org was just an example, I could just as well have picked an Amiga or Linux site, or whatever. And I'll admit that the percentage of 99% of the visitors is an exaggeration for the sake of discussion :-)

And about the demanding: Until now I think Scamp's post about this subject have been very polite and he gave good reasons why Mac demos won't be allowed in the compo at BP, but still Mac sceners call him arrogant, say he's completely missing the point, etc. To me, that looks like people who think they are entitled to something.

Hmm, seems like less than five mac-people are making stress to get some compo-rights. What does suck at the mac-compo thingy? What is that bad on the wild compo? There have been good entries on each M&S or BP.

What, if BP orgas say ok to Mac in PC-compo and the entries where that lame they get selected out during preselection?

In the last days my opinion about Mac-sceners has lowered to a minimum because of about five people.

BP is no commercial event, it should be a party for everyone. But where is the fun when some ppl are flaming against the organizers who have lots of work?

Think about it.

PS: Combined compo like scamp mentioned would be nice, but since I get flamed because of "Xbox is a pc" I see many problems coming.

geez. i better not comment this anymore, my ancient rage and hatred towards macs would come to surface. :)

Two things I forgot:

1st: A mac-compo (or mac in pc-compo) means there must be a mac as compo-machine.

2nd: elmindreda
"You are obviously not able to understand basic English. Please go read gammawave's postings again until you reach enlightenment."

With that you disqualified yourself. Going to request a party feature doesnt mean to piss at the orgas when you don't get it.